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The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Exploring modern Theravāda interpretations of the Buddha's teaching.
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acinteyyo
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:38 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

pulga
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby pulga » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:19 am

Hello Brivat,

Excellent post. If I recall Ñanavira does explicitly mention differing degrees of presence within the reflexive hierarchy. We're dealing with a horizontal, contextual hierarchy of pancakhanda infinite in both directions, as well as a perpendicular hierarchy which entails the reduplication of the experience (i.e. the phenomena) itself. You refer to this latter hierarchy as one of awareness, but I believe we're still dealing with a hierarchy of pancakhanda; i.e. "awareness of a thing" is just above the "consciousness of a thing" in complexity: the thing remains the same, so we're left with the impression of consciousness of consciousness of a thing. (But notice how reflexion is a matter of manasikára: we shift our attention to the awareness a thing, and the consciousness of a thing is still there but no longer in our focus. In effect doesn't it then show itself as a determination for the awareness of a thing?)

The reflexive reduplication of experience is, of course, reduplication of all five khandhá, not of viññána alone.( SN Viññána)


But though, in immediacy, attention rests at ground level, the entire reflexive hierarchy remains 'potential' (it is there, but not attended to), and immediacy is always under potential reflexive observation (i.e. it is seen but not noticed). Another way of saying this is that the 'potential' reflexive hierarchy -- which we might call pre-reflexive -- is a hierarchy of consciousness (viññána), not of awareness (sampajañña). For awareness, reflexive intention is necessary. SN Dhamma
Last edited by pulga on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chownah
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby chownah » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:31 am


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kirk5a
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:20 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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retrofuturist
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:32 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:37 am

Hi everyone,

The work of Ven. Nanavira is a modern phenomenological philosophy, is is not an exposition of the teachings of the Buddha as found in the Sutta Pitaka.

1. Ven. Nanavira has invented his own philosophical system, and claims that it is Buddhism.

2. He claims that his system is based on the Sutta Pitaka, it is not.

3. His understanding of vinnana ( consciousness ) is completely wrong.

4. He has invented his own idea of phassa ( contact ), ignoring what is said in the Discourses.

5. He has completely misunderstood what the Discourses say about the Six-Spheres.

6. He is probably also wrong about ignorance, sankhara, and nama-rupa.

Regards, Vincent.

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Ben
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:49 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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retrofuturist
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:50 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

vinasp
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:13 am

Hi everyone,

Let me begin by attempting to substantiate claim 3.

Here is what I regard as the key passage for the correct understanding of consciousness. From MN 43.4-6


Consciousness

"'Consciousness, consciousness': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'consciousness'?"

"'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"

"Discernment & consciousness, friend: Are these qualities conjoined or disjoined? Is it possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them?"

"Discernment & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It's not possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them. For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference between them."

"Discernment & consciousness, friend: What is the difference between these qualities that are conjoined, not disjoined?"

"Discernment & consciousness, friend: Of these qualities that are conjoined, not disjoined, discernment is to be developed, consciousness is to be fully comprehended."[1]

Link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

In the passage above panna (wisdom) is translated as discernment.

Wisdom represents knowledge and understanding and it can not be distinguished from consciousness. Both are a form of knowing or understanding, either conceptual or linguistic. The difference then, must be that consciousness is a wrong kind of knowing while wisdom is the right kind. Consciousness is related to ignorance, but wisdom is the opposite of ignorance.

Regards, Vincent.

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retrofuturist
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:21 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Brivat
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby Brivat » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:34 am

-
Last edited by Brivat on Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chownah
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby chownah » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:31 pm

Brivat,
Thanks for providing the excerpts!! I am trying to discern whether Nanavira is trying to construct a view of a "real" world "out there".....what I've read so far I can interpret as either part of such a view or not......that is to say that it could be that everything he speaks of is a fabrication and part of The All and is just describing different aspects and relationships among various fabrications......I'm just not clearly understanding which way he intends it to be understood.
Thanks again,
chownah

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acinteyyo
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:22 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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kirk5a
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:36 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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retrofuturist
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:58 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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acinteyyo
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:31 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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kirk5a
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:36 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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retrofuturist
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:11 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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acinteyyo
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:18 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:11 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


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