New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
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New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
The Dharmachakra group at the 84000 site now has a 345 page version (in PDF), which they title The Play in Full. This the life of the Prince who became Buddha:
http://read.84000.co/browser/released/U ... 46-001.pdf
http://read.84000.co/browser/released/U ... 46-001.pdf
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
Thanks for this Will.
I only know Lalitavistara from Gwendolyn Bays' translation from the French (The Voice of the Buddha). What a wonderful text.
As a title, 'The Play in Full' sounds slightly strange to my ear - but a definite improvement on Wiki's 'Extensive Sport Sutra' !
The 84000 website seems to have fallen over just now. Maybe it's the vast queue of people trying to download this new translation.
What an excellent project this is.
D
I only know Lalitavistara from Gwendolyn Bays' translation from the French (The Voice of the Buddha). What a wonderful text.
As a title, 'The Play in Full' sounds slightly strange to my ear - but a definite improvement on Wiki's 'Extensive Sport Sutra' !
The 84000 website seems to have fallen over just now. Maybe it's the vast queue of people trying to download this new translation.
What an excellent project this is.
D
Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
Due to the size of the sutra, it takes about a minute to load in the reading room, so after you click on it just be patient
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Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
Yes, on this Friday morn the site is v e r y s l o w. I have not visited it in months, so do not know why.
They also just put up the Karandavyuha Sutra, all about OM MANI PADME HUM.
They also just put up the Karandavyuha Sutra, all about OM MANI PADME HUM.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
- Leo Rivers
- Posts: 498
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:52 am
- Contact:
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
Thank you Will. Oh man, I had just bought the 2 Volume Dharma Publishing edition too...
I am looking forward to comparing this to the Jataka-nidana and it will be interesting to compare them. That ought cover the earliest Mahayana renderings of the Sport of the Sura Buddha.
See the chart comparing them here:
http://www.buddhanet-de.net/ancient-bud ... /index.htm
AND
I found this while waiting for the download....
The Earliest RecordedDiscourses of the Buddha(from Lalitavistara, Mahākhandhaka & Mahāvastu)
http://www.buddhanet-de.net/ancient-bud ... /index.htm
I am looking forward to comparing this to the Jataka-nidana and it will be interesting to compare them. That ought cover the earliest Mahayana renderings of the Sport of the Sura Buddha.
See the chart comparing them here:
http://www.buddhanet-de.net/ancient-bud ... /index.htm
AND
I found this while waiting for the download....
The Earliest RecordedDiscourses of the Buddha(from Lalitavistara, Mahākhandhaka & Mahāvastu)
http://www.buddhanet-de.net/ancient-bud ... /index.htm
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
Thank you for bringing this to our attention Will!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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- Posts: 4209
- Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
- Location: California
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
The Karandavyuha Sutra can now be read online, but neither Chrome or Safari gets a response when trying to download the PDF.
If anyone does have success, please post here the link to the sutra pdf.
If anyone does have success, please post here the link to the sutra pdf.
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
This Sutra is apparently the first mention of Om Mani Padme Hum. The Sutra also mentions the Cundi mantra. Is this Sutra also the first appearance of the Cundi mantra?Will wrote:The Karandavyuha Sutra can now be read online, but neither Chrome or Safari gets a response when trying to download the PDF.
If anyone does have success, please post here the link to the sutra pdf.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
udawa wrote:Thanks for this Will.
As a title, 'The Play in Full' sounds slightly strange to my ear - but a definite improvement on Wiki's 'Extensive Sport Sutra' !
D
Bear in mind that the concept of "Divine Play/Sport" is very much ingrained in the Indian psyche. The word "play/sport" when used in a religious context, it automatically assumes the meaning of "Divine Play/Sport".
V
http://www.virtualvinodh.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
yo dharmaṁ paśyati, sa buddhaṁ paśyati
One who sees the Dharma, sees the Buddha
śālistamba sūtra
na pudgalo na ca skandhā buddho jñānamanāsravam
sadāśāntiṁ vibhāvitvā gacchāmi śaraṇaṁ hyaham
Neither a person nor the aggregates, the Buddha, is knowledge free from [evil] outflows
Clearly perceiving [him] to be eternally serene, I go for refuge [in him]
saddharma-laṅkāvatāra-sūtra
yo dharmaṁ paśyati, sa buddhaṁ paśyati
One who sees the Dharma, sees the Buddha
śālistamba sūtra
na pudgalo na ca skandhā buddho jñānamanāsravam
sadāśāntiṁ vibhāvitvā gacchāmi śaraṇaṁ hyaham
Neither a person nor the aggregates, the Buddha, is knowledge free from [evil] outflows
Clearly perceiving [him] to be eternally serene, I go for refuge [in him]
saddharma-laṅkāvatāra-sūtra
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
Thanks for that V. 'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?vinodh wrote:udawa wrote:Thanks for this Will.
As a title, 'The Play in Full' sounds slightly strange to my ear - but a definite improvement on Wiki's 'Extensive Sport Sutra' !
D
Bear in mind that the concept of "Divine Play/Sport" is very much ingrained in the Indian psyche. The word "play/sport" when used in a religious context, it automatically assumes the meaning of "Divine Play/Sport".
V
D
Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
I know. Something always gets lost during translation ! Doesn't it ?udawa wrote:
Thanks for that V. 'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?
D
In this case, I assume its best left as-is. Or append the word "divine" or any other suitable adjective. Coz.. The sutra tells that whatever the Buddha did was just a
"play", (he wasn't "actually" doing anything ) and it was just a "display" for the less-than-enlightened sentient beings.
There is even a Hindu goddess named "Lalitaa" - When translated would literally become "She who plays", which is kinda weird. (No, She is not the Goddess of sports )
V
http://www.virtualvinodh.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
yo dharmaṁ paśyati, sa buddhaṁ paśyati
One who sees the Dharma, sees the Buddha
śālistamba sūtra
na pudgalo na ca skandhā buddho jñānamanāsravam
sadāśāntiṁ vibhāvitvā gacchāmi śaraṇaṁ hyaham
Neither a person nor the aggregates, the Buddha, is knowledge free from [evil] outflows
Clearly perceiving [him] to be eternally serene, I go for refuge [in him]
saddharma-laṅkāvatāra-sūtra
yo dharmaṁ paśyati, sa buddhaṁ paśyati
One who sees the Dharma, sees the Buddha
śālistamba sūtra
na pudgalo na ca skandhā buddho jñānamanāsravam
sadāśāntiṁ vibhāvitvā gacchāmi śaraṇaṁ hyaham
Neither a person nor the aggregates, the Buddha, is knowledge free from [evil] outflows
Clearly perceiving [him] to be eternally serene, I go for refuge [in him]
saddharma-laṅkāvatāra-sūtra
- Leo Rivers
- Posts: 498
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:52 am
- Contact:
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
It seems that there was a notion the Buddhists adapted that just as the Cosmos was but the sporting mind projection of the Devas (power to control others incarnations?) The Buddha was ALWAYS Cosmic. This is the view of the Lotus Sutra and the Avatamsaka so beloved of Asia. This divorces the Buddha(s) from the rest of humanity and is very typical of Piety where self purification seems to need to involve abasement.
I prefer the later (yet more ancient) view that the Buddha indeed took many incarnations to "get there" as in the Jataka Nidanakatha (The "story of the Buddha in 3 epochs" that is a prelude to the Jataka Tales.) AND there are many Buddhas (Cosmic as to scope, not cosmic as to the exaltation of the Buddha Being).
Between the 1st Century CE and the 3rd Century CE there were many diverse attempts to "add" several of the score of New Thinking ideas that later in retrospect all became aggregated into a definition of a Mahayana. But in these new sutras you will find many different combinations of which new ideas are accepted. Some are "traditional texts" with one or two new ideas added for enhancement. The Jataka Nidanakatha "likes" the Buddha Cosmic as in scope, and the further path of the Ten Perfections to a Greater Path past Arhant to Buddha. Other than that, it's Buddhism.
The first chapter of the Lalitavistara is Mahayana in which the Buddha is Cosmic as in deification and divorcement from humanity.
******
An aside: A Brave New Buddhist?
If feel rather homeless. (An atheist Buddhist I live in a rural town in Oregon and the Born Agains and the Buddhists in Priuses both shun me). 2 years ago I had to jettison myself from the mindset of the sangha I have been a part of for 20 years when it imploded spiritually and organizationally. Then I found I landed 1800 years ago in a zone in NW India in which Buddhism is inventing itself as it goes, liking some "Mahayana new way" thinking, and having an organ transplant rejection of other "Mahayana new way" thinking. That is why the periphery of Gandhara and the Yogacarabhumi as a genre attracts me. Between Sangharaksa and Asangha, (not Vasubandhu so much), people were seizing the means of spiritual production and re-inventing themselves. They and them is like we and now. Leo
I prefer the later (yet more ancient) view that the Buddha indeed took many incarnations to "get there" as in the Jataka Nidanakatha (The "story of the Buddha in 3 epochs" that is a prelude to the Jataka Tales.) AND there are many Buddhas (Cosmic as to scope, not cosmic as to the exaltation of the Buddha Being).
Between the 1st Century CE and the 3rd Century CE there were many diverse attempts to "add" several of the score of New Thinking ideas that later in retrospect all became aggregated into a definition of a Mahayana. But in these new sutras you will find many different combinations of which new ideas are accepted. Some are "traditional texts" with one or two new ideas added for enhancement. The Jataka Nidanakatha "likes" the Buddha Cosmic as in scope, and the further path of the Ten Perfections to a Greater Path past Arhant to Buddha. Other than that, it's Buddhism.
The first chapter of the Lalitavistara is Mahayana in which the Buddha is Cosmic as in deification and divorcement from humanity.
******
An aside: A Brave New Buddhist?
If feel rather homeless. (An atheist Buddhist I live in a rural town in Oregon and the Born Agains and the Buddhists in Priuses both shun me). 2 years ago I had to jettison myself from the mindset of the sangha I have been a part of for 20 years when it imploded spiritually and organizationally. Then I found I landed 1800 years ago in a zone in NW India in which Buddhism is inventing itself as it goes, liking some "Mahayana new way" thinking, and having an organ transplant rejection of other "Mahayana new way" thinking. That is why the periphery of Gandhara and the Yogacarabhumi as a genre attracts me. Between Sangharaksa and Asangha, (not Vasubandhu so much), people were seizing the means of spiritual production and re-inventing themselves. They and them is like we and now. Leo
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
Just tried again - you can read the text online ok now, but the pdf download shows up as a broken link.Will wrote:The Karandavyuha Sutra can now be read online, but neither Chrome or Safari gets a response when trying to download the PDF.
If anyone does have success, please post here the link to the sutra pdf.
D
Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
This happened to me too with the Karandavyuha Sutra.udawa wrote:Just tried again - you can read the text online ok now, but the pdf download shows up as a broken link.Will wrote:The Karandavyuha Sutra can now be read online, but neither Chrome or Safari gets a response when trying to download the PDF.
If anyone does have success, please post here the link to the sutra pdf.
D
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
Ok. I see another translation offers ''The unfolding of the play' - so presumably the unfolding of the drama of Buddha's awakening or something like that.vinodh wrote:I know. Something always gets lost during translation ! Doesn't it ?udawa wrote:
Thanks for that V. 'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?
D
In this case, I assume its best left as-is. Or append the word "divine" or any other suitable adjective. Coz.. The sutra tells that whatever the Buddha did was just a
"play", (he wasn't "actually" doing anything ) and it was just a "display" for the less-than-enlightened sentient beings.
There is even a Hindu goddess named "Lalitaa" - When translated would literally become "She who plays", which is kinda weird. (No, She is not the Goddess of sports )
V
Anyway, I'm always grateful for another translation, if only for comparison. And a slightly awkward but accurate version that is generally more useful than a freer more poetic, rendition.
Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
In what way is it scarcely English? The introduction explains the ambiguity in the title. "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" comes to mind (amongst other English titles).udawa wrote:'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
Vistara does generally mean to amplify, to give a full detailed account, an extensive literary work, stage direction for a narrator to fill in the details, etc. I think in a title like this, it means a detailed literary work. Translating it as "Story" or "Narration" would seem appropriate. The old translation from Sanskrit done in the 19th century called it a Memoir.udawa wrote:vinodh wrote:I know. Something always gets lost during translation ! Doesn't it ?udawa wrote:
Thanks for that V. 'The play in full' is scarcely English. Is there a better way of translating Lalitavistara? Or is it just one of those things better left in the original?
D
In this case, I assume its best left as-is. Or append the word "divine" or any other suitable adjective. Coz.. The sutra tells that whatever the Buddha did was just a
"play", (he wasn't "actually" doing anything ) and it was just a "display" for the less-than-enlightened sentient beings.
There is even a Hindu goddess named "Lalitaa" - When translated would literally become "She who plays", which is kinda weird. (No, She is not the Goddess of sports )
V
Lalita basically means dropping civil pretexts and indulging in whatever seems amusing. Informal dancing. Horsing around. Being amorous, wanton. Having fun. Following one's desires without the usual restraints. Like children, puppies, kittens. I would translate it as "playing" or "having fun." It is not really formal sports. That's too serious. In the case of the Bodhisattva - there is probably some tongue-in-cheek to this - he plays with the spiritual powers and skillful means. Which maybe pokes fun at both the discipline of asceticism (no lalita allowed) as well as the spiritual vacuity of the secular world (which has plenty of lalita, but no Dharma).
Charlie.
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
So, 'A Playful Narration'?cdpatton wrote: Vistara does generally mean to amplify, to give a full detailed account, an extensive literary work, stage direction for a narrator to fill in the details, etc. I think in a title like this, it means a detailed literary work. Translating it as "Story" or "Narration" would seem appropriate. The old translation from Sanskrit done in the 19th century called it a Memoir.
Lalita basically means dropping civil pretexts and indulging in whatever seems amusing. Informal dancing. Horsing around. Being amorous, wanton. Having fun. Following one's desires without the usual restraints. Like children, puppies, kittens. I would translate it as "playing" or "having fun." It is not really formal sports. That's too serious. In the case of the Bodhisattva - there is probably some tongue-in-cheek to this - he plays with the spiritual powers and skillful means. Which maybe pokes fun at both the discipline of asceticism (no lalita allowed) as well as the spiritual vacuity of the secular world (which has plenty of lalita, but no Dharma).
Charlie.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
OP: Thanks for the updates.
Yesterday I was able to download Lalitavistara, but couldn't view or download the Karandavyuha.
I just tried again, and the 84000 website doesn't load; firefox browser just shows "connecting..." I tried it also with Internet Explorer and it's the same.
Yesterday I was able to download Lalitavistara, but couldn't view or download the Karandavyuha.
I just tried again, and the 84000 website doesn't load; firefox browser just shows "connecting..." I tried it also with Internet Explorer and it's the same.
Critics slap labels on you and then expect you to talk inside their terms. - Doris Lessing
Re: New Lalitavistara Sutra translation
At their end they are experiencing a database connection error. I am shocked that many websites these days are so poorly implemented. Nothing like this would have been possible in the few websites I created (you could have database connection errors but the user still saw the site and wasn't able to proceed but to just fail and not display anything or worse an overt error message is unacceptable).Kunzang wrote:OP: Thanks for the updates.
Yesterday I was able to download Lalitavistara, but couldn't view or download the Karandavyuha.
I just tried again, and the 84000 website doesn't load; firefox browser just shows "connecting..." I tried it also with Internet Explorer and it's the same.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche