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Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Postby Zom » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:35 pm


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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Postby starter » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:33 pm

To my understanding of AN 10.7, the concentration Ven. Sariputta attained is indeed "the cessation of perception and feeling", and I remember that several suttas mentioned he was liberated by obtaining the concentration of "the cessation of perception and feeling". In such an attainment, feeling, perception and consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) cease together. To me the word "perception" has two different designations in the sutta, one means the mundane perception (the perception of five aggregates), and another one (the perception of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding) is a transcendental "perception" that arises as the mundane perception ceases. It's probably better for us to have a more complete understanding of such different designations of important words in their respective contexts in the suttas to avoid biased views, misunderstandings and confusions.

The following suttas might be of help to understand "the unborn, ...", but please read these suttas (also the ones I cited before) carefully without any previously formed bias/notions before you make your judgments:

"... There is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned", ... "escape from the born, become, made, and conditioned" (Ud8:3/80).

"... the unborn, unaging, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, undefiled supreme security from bondage" (MN 26.18).

"... the supreme foundation of truth, whose nature is undeceptive and which ranks as the supreme noble truth" (MN 140.26)

33 synonyms for Nibbana (SN 43.1-44):
1. The Unconditioned
2. The destruction of lust, hate, delusion
3. The Uninclined
4. The taintless
5. The truth
6. The other shore
7. The subtle
8. The very difficult to see
9. The unaging
10. The stable
11. The undisintegrating
12. The unmanifest
13. The unproliferated
14. The peaceful
15. The deathless
16. The sublime
17. The auspicious
18. The secure
19. The destruction of craving
20. The wonderful
21. The amazing
22. The secure
23. The unailing state
24. The unafflicted
25. The passionless
26. The Pure
27. Freedom
28. Non attachment
29. The island
30. The shelter
31. The asylum
32. The refuge
33. The ultimate (The destination and the path leading to the destination)

I hope these teachings won't be regarded as those of Hindhu's about Atman. As I understand, Hindu's teachings only refer to the conditioned phenomena within the five aggregates as eternal "self" because they cannot see the unconditioned. Actually the Buddha taught us that nibbana is causeless, timeless and imperishable. Of course it doesn't mean that we should take it as "self". Nibbana is NOT "I", "mine". The sense of "self" is the result of the "magic show" of mind consciousness. It appears to me that the Buddha didn't teach we should hold the view that we have no self, but rather, he teaches us to remove any view of self:

“View the world, … as empty — always mindful to have removed any view about self [e.g. "I have a self" or "I have no self"]. This way one is above & beyond death. This is how one views the world so as not to be seen by Death's king.” — Sn 5.15

Metta to all,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Postby Zom » Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:11 pm


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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibba

Postby starter » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:45 pm

Hi, thanks for your input and help to all my threads!

Here is another question:

sabba-saṅkhāra-samatha: stilling of all mental constructions, or stilling of all volitions / conditioned formations?

"This is the peaceful; this is the sublime; that is, the stilling of all (karmic) volitions (for living arahants, nibbana with residue) or all (conditioned) formations (for arahants at death, nibbana without residue); the relinquishing of all foundations (of existence – volition as the basis for the stationing and establishment of consciousness SN12.40?); the ending of craving; dipassion; cessation; nibbana"

It appears to me that the understanding of Nibbana as “the stilling of all mental constructions” could be misleading, which could lead to the practice of “emptiness” (of mental constructions) or “the sound of silence” as the goal of the path. When we contemplate Nibbana, it's important to know what to contemplate.

To my understanding, the third Noble truth should be the relinquishing of craving as taught in SN 56.11, not the stilling of all mental constructions, or not even the stilling of all volitions (we still need wholesome volitions to practice the Buddha’s path). The stilling of all volitions or conditioned formations (nibbana) is the fruit of the relinquishing of craving. The correct understanding of Nibbana is necessary in order to have the right goal of the path.

SN56.11:

Now this, monks, is the noble truth of suffering: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are suffering; association with the unbeloved is suffering, separation from the loved is suffering, not getting what is wanted is suffering. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are suffering.

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of suffering: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for not-becoming.

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve (and right thoughts), right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

Metta to all!
Last edited by starter on Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Postby Mr Man » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:44 pm


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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Postby starter » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:11 pm

Hi it appears to me that some teachers might have understood "emptiness" (of mental constructions) as nibbana. If you like, you can do a Google search for the translation of the sentence about Nibbana: "This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, the stilling of all ...". You'll come up with "the stilling of all mental constructions (formations) ...".

With metta!

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Postby SarathW » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:45 pm

Hi Starter I understand where you coming from.
What is your interpretation or understanding of Radiant Consciousness. How does this fit with Nirvana or in terms of Consciousness not Established?
Metta
Please read
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=15567
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Postby starter » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:59 am

Hi Sarath,

I would rather translate "Radiant Consciousness" into "unbound mind" or undefiled mind (of living arahants as mentioned in AN 10.7, MN111 and AN 10.81). In case you didn't read my earlier post about it, I'm copying it here to save you searching. Hope other friends wouldn't mind the repetition:

"AN 10.7
PTS: A v 8
Sariputta Sutta: With Sariputta
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2004–2012

Then Ven. Ananda went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception ... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Yes, friend Ananda, he could..."

"But how, friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."

"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"

"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': [u]One perception arose in me as another one ceased[/U]. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"

As I understand from this sutta, the concentration Ven. Sariputta attained here is the highest attainment "the cessation of perception and feeling", since all the other possible types of formless concentration (including neither perception nor feeling) are excluded. What ceased in this attainment is only the cessation of perception of five aggregates; as this mundane perception ceases, another transcendental perception arises during the concentration, which is the perception of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding', nibbana. Therefore, it appears to me that in MN 111 "And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom" occurs during (not after) the concentration of the cessation of perception and feeling, and his mind become freed from barriers of defilements that the Buddha described in the following sutta:

AN 10.81:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Campa, on the shore of Gaggara Lake. Then Ven. Bahuna went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, freed, dissociated, & released from how many things does the Tathagata dwell with unbound mind?

Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with unbound mind. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unbound mind. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... Freed, dissociated, & released from perception... Freed, dissociated, & released from volitions... Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness... Freed, dissociated, & released from birth... Freed, dissociated, & released from aging... Freed, dissociated, & released from death... Freed, dissociated, & released from stress... Freed, dissociated, & released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with unbound mind.

"Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with unbound mind.

As we can see from the above quoted sutta, the Tathagata dwelling with "unbound mind" is freed, dissociated, and released from defilements, and also from the five aggregates including consciousness as well as from the birth/death.

Metta to all!
Last edited by starter on Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Postby SarathW » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:19 am

Hi Starter
Thanks.
Your wrote:
As we can see from the above quoted sutta, the Tathagata dwelling with "unrestricted awareness" is freed, dissociated, and released from consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) as well as from the death, so there is indeed another type of undefiled/undeceptive, unrestricted, undying/unborn, sorrowless awareness in living arahants, occurring during the cessation of perception and feeling (as the aggregate consciousness ceases), but it's not the aggregate of consciousness" (which is beyond the five aggregates).
---------------
I thinks this issue is discussed in another link:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16082

Please note that Buddha avoid any question in relation to whether things exist or not. I think that everything is dependent originated except Arahantship.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Postby Dmytro » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:46 am

Hi,

Since the expression "viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" occurs only in two suttas, in a rather enigmatic context, and without explanation, it's hard to say anything certain about it.

There's much more clear and detailed concept of "" of an Arahant, and it is explained how exactly the Conditioned Arising (paticca-samuppada) ceases thanks to viññāṇa being appatiṭṭhita.

Best wishes, Dmytro


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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Postby starter » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:28 am

Hello Dmytro: Thanks for your input. Would you mind telling me the Pali words for "unrestricted awareness" that the Buddha described in AN 10.81? Is this an accurate translation?

Hello SarathW: indeed the Buddha taught us that all conditioned dhamma are just dependencies, but not the unconditioned dhamma Nibbana, which is beyong dependencies. "Existence"/"non-existence" also only apply to the conditioned Dhamma, and don't apply to Nibbana.

Metta to all!

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Postby Dmytro » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:17 am



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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Postby pulga » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:12 pm


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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=undefiled, unbound mind = nibbana

Postby starter » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:52 pm

Hello Dmytro,

Thanks for your great help. As I can see from the two suttas you recommended, this “unrestricted awareness” or "mind free from boundaries" or “immeasurable mind” is still an Arahant-only thing, since Ven. Sariputta was an Arahant “with an awareness rid of barriers”, and the monk with “an immeasurable (unlimited) mind” is also clearly an Arahant who has gained complete liberation. However, it’s clear from both suttas that this “unrestricted awareness” not only occurred during the concentration of cessation of perception and feeling, but also afterwards.

What I understood from both suttas is that the liberated mind is freed from the barriers of defilements, which is not bound/limited/restricted by defilements. I tend to think “mind free from boundaries (of defilements)" or “unbound mind” is a better translation since the translation of “unrestricted awareness” could be misleading, which could confuse the readers with another type of Arahant-only consciousness. Although based upon AN 10.7 there appears to be another transcendental perception (the perception of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding') that arises during the concentration of the cessation of perception and feeling, I’d like to change the “unrestricted awareness” into "undefiled mind" or "unbound mind", which is freed, dissociated, and released from five aggregates including consciousness as well as from birth/death, according to AN 10.81. Likewise, Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ is the mind empty of defilements:

viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" [non-manifestive mind, mind (is) non-indicative or non-manifestive or empty of volitions and defilements, free from name and form]
= appatiṭṭha viññāṇa [unestablished mind, with consciousness unestablished/unstationed, not established upon name and form]
= "Mind without barriers" ["unrestricted mind", pure mind devoid of defilements]
= Living Arahant’s mind
= Nibbana


Metta to all!

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

Postby Gena1480 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:53 am

i have to agree about nibbana
that nibbana is experience of abandon fetters
if you regard the path and fruit of steam enter as nibbana
for example if you abandon self
this self fetter does not come back
what can not come back , you cant establish your consciousness in that
on whats not there
consciousness experiencing no object (what has been extinguish)or abandon
unestablished consciousness
but what has been abandon can not be experience
is this consciousness that experience , what cannot be experience is nibbana
can someone help me if there is any sutta that says something to the effect
that says that a steam enter path or fruit is regarded as nibbana ?

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=undefiled, unbound mind = nibbana

Postby Dmytro » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:26 am



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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

Postby Gena1480 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:18 am

i just realized that my mind is defiled
i just cant answer if undefiled mind is nibbana
dmytro should i abandon the practice of studying suttas in order to understand nibbana
and concentrate on my defiled mind.
my thinking is that who ever does not understand depending origination
does not go beyond this world
am i jumping to far ahead
is defiled mind can not understand depending origination
metta

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

Postby Dmytro » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:36 am



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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

Postby starter » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:05 am

"For the Ara­hant … all con­cepts have become trans­par­ent to such a degree in that all-encompassing vision, that their bound­aries together with their umbra and penum­bra have yielded to the radi­ance of wis­dom. This, then, is the sig­nif­i­cance of the word anantaṃ (end­less, infi­nite). Thus the para­dox­i­cally detached gaze of the con­tem­pla­tive sage as he looks through the con­cepts is one which has no object (ārammaṇa) as the point of focus for the worldling to iden­tify it with."

-- Did the Buddha teach us nibbana is about non-conception? I thought his teaching is about non-conceiving. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Metta to all!

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

Postby SarathW » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:44 am

Hi Starter
What Buddha taught was:
1 Anicca; 2 Dukkha; 3 Anatta

:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”


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