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the great rebirth debate - Page 23 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue May 05, 2009 2:36 pm

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue May 05, 2009 2:58 pm

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Dhammanando » Tue May 05, 2009 3:05 pm


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Re: the great rebirth debate

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue May 05, 2009 3:17 pm

Greetings Bhante


Doesnt punabbhava just mean "birth in a new existence"?


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 05, 2009 3:28 pm


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Dhammanando » Tue May 05, 2009 3:30 pm


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue May 05, 2009 3:50 pm

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue May 05, 2009 3:56 pm

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 05, 2009 4:09 pm


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kc2dpt » Tue May 05, 2009 4:46 pm

OK, hang on a minute. Craig, you are arguing so dishonestly (or confusedly) I must call you on it.

Craig: Because in the Buddhas teachings of the 4nt's etc there is no rebirth contained within them,
Tilt: A statement that has been shown via a number of texts to be wrong
Craig: I have shown a text that says it isnt wrong

Craig, first you say the teachings of the 4NT do not contain rebirth. No teachings of 4NT contain rebirth. That's your assertion. Then you are shown some examples which explicitly mention rebirth. Right there you are proven wrong. Instead of addressing this proof, however, you respond by showing a different example which does not explicitly mention rebirth.* How does your response support your initial claim that the teachings on the 4NT never contain rebirth? No one here is claiming that every discourse given by the Buddha explicitly mentions rebirth. Some mention it explicitly, some imply it, some don't touch on it at all.** But you have made the bold claim that the 4NT never contain rebirth. You have been shown examples which disprove this claim. You need to address those examples. Providing different examples doesn't do that. All you have demonstrated is that sometimes the Buddha mentions rebirth and sometimes he doesn't mention rebirth. That is not the same thing as demonstrating that "in the Buddhas teachings of the 4nt's etc there is no rebirth contained within them". I may at one point talk about the sofa in my living room. I may at another point just talk about my living room and never mention the sofa. That doesn't mean there is suddenly no more sofa, only that I'm not talking about it right then.

Perhaps your point is that if the Buddha sometimes talked about the 4NT without explicitly mentioning rebirth, then that makes the rebirth teachings optional/marginal/not important? Is that your point? But then aren't you taking one discourse out of context? These monks and nuns heard many discourses over their lives, as well we can expect that they talked to each other about the teachings they had heard. Is it sensical to try to interpret one sutta in isolation from all the others? If this is what you want to assert, then you need to provide some evidence that any one sutta can and should be understood in isolation (and in contradiction) to the rest of the suttas.



* It was later shown that it implicitly refers to rebirth.

** Although it should be noted no discourse denies nor contradicts rebirth.
Last edited by kc2dpt on Tue May 05, 2009 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Peter


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kc2dpt » Tue May 05, 2009 4:49 pm

- Peter


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Tue May 05, 2009 5:39 pm

To everyone, including Craig:

I am absolutely enjoying this debate. For a Mahayana person wanting to learn and understand the words of the Buddha, reading your dissections of the suttas is very useful. Thanks to the staff for allowing the debate to go on.

:bow:


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Dhammanando » Tue May 05, 2009 6:44 pm


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kc2dpt » Tue May 05, 2009 6:58 pm

Sakkāya [sat+kāya] the body in being, the existing body or group

from

=====

* sakkāya

'existing group', 'this word is usually translated by 'personality',

but according to the commentaries it corresponds to sat-kāya, 'existing group', hence not to Sanskrit sva-kāya, 'own group' or 'own body'.

In the suttas (e.g. M.44) it is said to be a name for the 5 groups of existence (khandha):

"Sakkāya, o Brother Visākha, is said by the Blessed One to be a name for the 5 'groups as objects of clinging' (upādāna-kkhandha), to wit: corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness."

from
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kc2dpt » Tue May 05, 2009 7:28 pm

Furthermore, sakkāya-ditthi is defined as the view that the self is either:
- identical with the 5 groups of existence (khandha)
- contained in them;
- independent of them;
- or the owner of them.

Thus we can see sakkāya-ditthi is literally a view concerning the five khandhas.

So we can understand the "first noble truth" part of MN 44 as simply defining sakkāya as the five khandhas. "What is the Buddha refering to when he says 'sakkāya'? The five khandhas." This then means the "second noble truth" part of "What is the origin of sakkāya?" equivalent to asking "What is the origin of the five khandhas?" And the way to understand craving as the origin of the khandhas is to understand it as craving from the previous life causing rebirth.

Ven. Thanissaro's translations makes it quite different. The 1st NT part becomes "What is it we self-identify with?" rather than "What does the Buddha refer to when he says 'sakkāya'?" Two very different interpretations.
- Peter


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kc2dpt » Tue May 05, 2009 7:41 pm

This reminds me of a debate I see on internet forums concerning the First Noble Truth. Is it defining dukkha? or is it describing what dukkha arises in reference to? For example, are birth, old age, sickness, and death themselves dukkha? or is it that an unawakened person experiences dukkha in reference to birth, old age, sickness, and death? If the former then Nibbana is the end of birth, old age, sickness, and death (meaning no more rebirth). If the latter then NIbbana is not the end of birth, old age, sickness, and death but rather only the end of suffering arising due to these things.

I don't mean for this to be debated here; I'm just noticing the similarity in argumentation. If sakkāya is defined as the 5 khandhas then that is one thing. If sakkāya arises in reference to the 5 khandhas then that is something else. Funny enough, in both cases it comes down to arguing about rebirth.

BTW, MN 44 does not discuss the Four Noble Truths at all. Rather it follows the same format as the Four Noble Truths - definition, arising, ceasing, way to ceasing. The Four Noble Truths are regarding dukkha. There are many teachings in the scriptures that borrow the 4NT format.
- Peter


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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon May 11, 2009 3:16 pm

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piotr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby piotr » Mon May 11, 2009 5:29 pm

Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 11, 2009 7:28 pm



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