Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby lobster » Tue May 21, 2013 8:04 am

MalaBeads wrote:Awareness however can suffuse the body. But awareness is "not me" either. It's just awareness.


Exactly. The Buddha had a body. Before, during and after awakening. A body, just like awareness of and in the body is a temporary arising, subjective if you will.
Awareness independent of subjective association. In other words awareness due to causality is without beginning or end. That therefore is not the end of subjectivity, neither is it the beginning or the arising . . . :thinking:
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby MalaBeads » Tue May 21, 2013 2:00 pm

lobster wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:Awareness however can suffuse the body. But awareness is "not me" either. It's just awareness.


Exactly. The Buddha had a body. Before, during and after awakening. A body, just like awareness of and in the body is a temporary arising, subjective if you will.
Awareness independent of subjective association. In other words awareness due to causality is without beginning or end. That therefore is not the end of subjectivity, neither is it the beginning or the arising . . . :thinking:


Pretty good lobster.

Even better with butter!!

:tongue:
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby Gyaltsen Tashi » Wed May 22, 2013 2:53 am

Does the question/s have anything to do with the three kayas? Just a hunch....
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu May 23, 2013 4:42 am

Just starting to look through this, but maybe it's relevant:
‘I’ Without ‘I Am’: On The Presence Of Subjectivity In Early Buddhism, In The Light Of Transcendental Phenomenology - Khristos Nizamis:
http://tinyurl.com/p22th4h
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
If we have to have a soul, it might as well be vidya, it is after all, permanent, unconditioned, a knower, stainless, and free from the three realms. But If we don't have to have one, vidya still has these characteristics. It is our essenceless essence. - a certain Gemini
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby Gyaltsen Tashi » Thu May 23, 2013 2:17 pm

I am not ready to give up my personal history. In fact I still bear grudges.
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby wisdom » Fri May 24, 2013 12:29 am

We dont really give up our personal history, we simply come to understand the nature of phenomena and so stop clinging to personal history. We stop thinking that its so important where we came from, who we have known, what we have done, what we are doing, what we will do. We lose all our conceit towards ourselves and our idea of ourselves. We maintain many of the same likes and dislikes, but we no longer cling to them as real, we understand they have the nature of illusion. In other words we become free from ourselves, no longer prisoners to our own minds and our past.

We don't really lose anything worth keeping, and we gain our freedom.
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby undefineable » Fri May 24, 2013 1:17 am

wisdom wrote:We dont really give up our personal history, we simply come to understand the nature of phenomena and so stop clinging to personal history. We stop thinking that its so important where we came from, who we have known, what we have done, what we are doing, what we will do. We lose all our conceit towards ourselves and our idea of ourselves. We maintain many of the same likes and dislikes, but we no longer cling to them as real, we understand they have the nature of illusion. In other words we become free from ourselves, no longer prisoners to our own minds and our past.

We don't really lose anything worth keeping, and we gain our freedom.

:meditate:
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby MalaBeads » Fri May 24, 2013 10:12 pm

Gyaltsen Tashi wrote:I am not ready to give up my personal history. In fact I still bear grudges.


Step one is to really see and know this. And apparently do. How you choose to relate to these grudges in your life is of course up to you. From a practice point of view, clinging to past hurts will only impede your path to liberation. But everyone's own liberation is up to them. Once I took my dog to dog training class. The instructor said, "You can do this is five weeks or in five months." I think it took us five years.

My own experience about giving things up is threefold. Sometimes i give something up because it just hurts too much too keep clinging. So that is 'the hard way'. Other times, I give something up because I have sufficient insight into how it works to see that it is ridiculous to keep clinging. And still other times, it seems as if past merit allows something to release all by itself, as if the sheer momentum of practice makes something easier.

Holding grudges is common but not helpful. But your path is your own. i wish you luck.
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