Talking About Kensho

Matylda
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby Matylda » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:43 am

yes Hakuin wrote about his kensho as warning for the future generations... he just bacome miserable, arogant etc. whith whom did he share? With teachers whom he met and who put him down...
later on he contracted serious illness from wong mind set and wrong attitude.. read carefuly Hakuin, it helps.
Anyway masters of the future generations were less eager to talk about kensho etc.

The new definition of kensho whoch became popular due to Hakuin is neither original rinzai tradition point nor is what the term in fact means.

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Meido
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby Meido » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:13 pm

Even though you have attained insight into the True Nature (kensho), there is yet the barrier of differentiation, and there is the One Path of Advanced Practice. If you have not yet even seen into the True Nature, what a lot there is yet to do! - Torei


Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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oushi
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby oushi » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:39 pm

Say what you think about me

shel
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby shel » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:42 am


icylake
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby icylake » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:03 pm

the meaning "Kensho" in each east Asian countries is seemingly used sdomewhat differently . in mainstream of Korean zen buddhism, "Kyun sung"(kensho)would be used as more archaeic meaning(enlightment) not like that in Japanese rinzai zen(Korean zen practitoners call Japanese rinzai zen "ladder zen"), in Chinese buddhism after Song dynasty, "Jian xing(kensho)" became more obscure term, for from thet time, authentic Chan buddhism became heavily assimilated with pureland tradition, so in some times, it seemes that the term"Jian xing" just meaning a kind of lyterary rhetoric. in many casese, it would be used as the combined term "Ming xin jian xing(light the mind, see the nature)" in this case"jian xing"usually doesn't mean a certain status of enlightment, but is a kind of "literary rhetoric".

tingdzin
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby tingdzin » Thu May 23, 2013 12:54 am

Actually, Matylda had it right. Even in such a short thread one can read all kinds of self-justifications, rationalizations, and attempts to show off which are incompatible with serious Zen training. The modern obsession with making personal experiences public (usually with dishonest or competitive motives) is a huge obstacle to the genuine practice of any form of Buddhism.

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oushi
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby oushi » Thu May 23, 2013 6:34 am

Now the question can be asked: Are you trying to show off by pointing it out? ;)
Read letters of Hakuin, a guy that took Zen practice too serious (zen sickness). They are full of "all kinds of self-justifications, rationalizations, and attempts to show off".
Welcome to multidimensional world of meaning, where even the "84 000" can be seen as a set of show offs.
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Beatzen
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby Beatzen » Thu May 23, 2013 6:13 pm

"Cause is not before and Effect is not after"
- Eihei Dogen Zenji

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oushi
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby oushi » Thu May 23, 2013 7:54 pm

Say what you think about me

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seeker242
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby seeker242 » Thu May 23, 2013 11:42 pm

How do you know if you have experienced kensho? If before kensho you can't see your true nature and then you have an experience, how do you know that this experience is seeing your nature, if originally you do not know what seeing your nature is to begin with? How do you know it's actual kensho, rather than just what you think is kensho?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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oushi
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby oushi » Fri May 24, 2013 6:57 am

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seeker242
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby seeker242 » Fri May 24, 2013 11:39 am

One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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oushi
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby oushi » Fri May 24, 2013 11:58 am

Say what you think about me

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seeker242
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby seeker242 » Fri May 24, 2013 12:09 pm

One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

tingdzin
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby tingdzin » Fri May 24, 2013 10:39 pm

Yes, seeker, there are all sorts of self-deluded people out there, and the longer I am around, the more I see. Agehananda Bharati used to talk about people who were sincere, eloquent, and inspired talking about experiences they had not had. Just master the patter and talk yourself into believing it, and -- presto -- you've had a deep experience. Furthermore, every time one talks about an experience, it becomes more and more distorted; this is called polluting the stream at its source.

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oushi
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby oushi » Sat May 25, 2013 7:22 am

Say what you think about me

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Wayfarer
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby Wayfarer » Sat May 25, 2013 10:28 am

We could start a Zen reality TV show about who has had the best kensho. It would be called 'The Biggest Nobody'. :tongue:
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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oushi
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby oushi » Sat May 25, 2013 11:24 am

Seriously, I don't see many people running around, elaborating about their experiences. But even if they appear, there is always the same, rigid attitude toward it. They are either making it up, or they are wrong. Now "our" job is to prove it to be a makyo....
Years ago I described my own experience and the first response I received was very positive. Instead of struggling with myself and others, I returned to the experience which was very beneficial. I can imagine that I wouldn't be so grateful if somebody started to make fun of it instead.
On the other hand, I can understand people that didn't experience anything profound and they are eager to despise any insight experience, just for their own sake.
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lobster
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby lobster » Sat May 25, 2013 12:35 pm


Matylda
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Re: Talking About Kensho

Postby Matylda » Sun May 26, 2013 4:06 pm

''Show off'' is very wrong thing, and ends up in severing bonds with teacher in Zen. All temples and monasteris I knew would do it without hesitation. I remeber once Morinaga Roshi group were 2 Westerners were kicked out, why trying to show off.... same happened when some tried to engage in talk bout koans.
Second - Hakuin Zenji out of his kindenss wrote privately about his personal problems and how miserable he was... and there is no justification to let common people of today to compare themselves to Hakuin! This is simply peak of arrogance.
As for being so called "lack of doubt" it is no sign of kensho etc. it is just emotinal state of being pretty misguided, by own emotions. Some experience it and do it very painfuly, not seeing even that they are rediculous.

I think that goo reference text is Torei's Mujinto and its commentaries, specially by Daibi Zenji, it may clarify problems.
However even that approach to kensho was critisized within rinzai and soto as well. But since Hakuin line predominates now totally within rinzai tradition it is good to refer to its core teachings not letters send to private students. It may be easily misunderstood.


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