True Pure Land and Parinirvana

True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby wukong » Mon May 20, 2013 3:25 pm

Hi all

can anyone elucidate the idea of parinirvana in Pure land, especially true pure land.

I understand that parinirvana is when an enlightened being is released from the last of his/her karmic fruit and that that occurs at the end of the life of a person when they first become enlightened.

From a Pure Land and True Pure Land POV when does Parinirvana happen?

many thanks in advance for your help

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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Astus » Mon May 20, 2013 3:48 pm

The idea of "parinirvana" is generally not upheld by any Mahayana school but only as a skilful means, since buddhas remain helping sentient beings till the end of samsara. This is true for both the Jodoshu and Jodoshinshu as far as I know. Also note that one of the names of Amida is Infinite Life, i.e. he doesn't just "nirvana away" any time soon.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby sinweiy » Tue May 21, 2013 2:47 am

From the Nirmanakaya POV, Western PL, Amitabha, will also at one time parinirvana. then Avalokiteshvara will take over, and the Dharma World will not have Dharma Ending Age.
Avalokiteshvara will be called Pu Guang Gong De Shang Wang Ru Lai 普光功德山王如来(Unconditionate Light & Mountain of Great Merits Tathagata) and His land will be called Zhong Bao Pu Ji Zhuang Yen Tu 众宝普集庄严世界 (Magnific Land of All Treasury & unconditionate Liberation). Later Mahasthamaprapta will take over as Shan Zhu Gong De Bao Wang Ru Lai 善住功德宝王如来 (Kind Dwelling Virtue Treasure King Tathagata). which will become more and more magnific.

All Buddhas have a 'source' 本 (Noumenon) and a 'trace' 迹 (phenomenon). 'Source' refer to the first time the Buddha attain Buddhahood. While 'Trace' refer to manifestation in order to liberate sentient beings. Like Shakaymuni Buddha, who came to Earth to attain Buddhahood 3000 years ago is not His 'Source' but 'Trace' as stated in Lotus Sutra. Shakaymuni Buddha already attain Buddhahood long long time ago. Brahma Net sutra state this is Shakaymuni Buddha's 8000 times displaying Enlightenment. So Shakaymuni's 'Source' is "inconceivable", it cannot be guessed/said when. Same goes for Amitabha Buddha. So is Amitabha Buddha in Pureland a 'source' or a 'trace'? Know that Amitabha is also a manifested Buddha ie 'Trace'(phenomenon) in Ultimate Bliss!! If we want to trace the 'Source' of Amitabha. Lotus Sutra had said that Amitabha and Shakaymuni used to be student;friends;brother together in inconceivable time back! If Shakaymuni's 'Source' is inconceivable, so is Amitabha. All is but manifestated 'Trace'. There can be no Parinirvana, in the perspective of 'Source'. So when Amitabha were to Parinirvana, that's just His manifested Body. And in order to manifested such a long time makes Amitabha's power of vow unbelievable & rare, compare to Shakaymuni's 80 years. If we people were to go to Amitabha's Pureland to cultivate and attain Buddhahood, that's our 'Source'. In other word Amitabha's 'Trace' help us to create our 'Source'. And if we were then to manifest in other world system to display Enlightenment, that's our 'Trace'.
Amitabha attain Buddhahood 10 Mahakalpas ago is a 'Trace'(phenomenon). 'Trace' can be said using the 3 bodies.
_/\_
Amituofo!

"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby LastLegend » Tue May 21, 2013 4:48 am

What sinweity said.

Manifestions are subject to change as they are also conditioned.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby wukong » Tue May 21, 2013 11:23 am

Dear all, thank you for your replies. Sinweity, your reply was extremely helpful and elucidating. many many thanks for that. i will go and digest what you said

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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Astus » Tue May 21, 2013 1:07 pm

Jodoshinshu.

From Kyogyoshinsho, chapter 5:

If, when I attain Buddhahood, my life-span should be limited, even to the extent of a hundred thousand kotis of nayutas of kalpas, may I not attain perfect Enlightenment.
(The 13th Vow - the Vow of Immeasurable Life)

The life of the Buddha of Infinite Life is so long that it is impossible for anyone to calculate it. To give an illustration, let us suppose that all the innumerable sentient beings in the worlds of the ten quarters were reborn in human form and that every one became a shravaka or pratyekabuddha. Even if they assembled in one place, concentrated their thoughts, and exercised the power of their wisdom to the utmost to reckon the length of the Buddha's life, even after a thousand million kalpas they still would not reach its limit.
(Fulfillment of the 13th Vows - the Larger Sutra)

Since Amida attained Buddhahood, ten kalpas have passed;
His life-span is indeed beyond measure.

(T'an-luan's Hymns in Praise of Amida Buddha)

From The 48 Vows of Amida Buddha, p. 13-14: (also see here only the chapter)

This vow simply means that his transcendent manifestation(Sambhogakaya body or Dharmakaya as compassionate means) will last forever for the benefit of all beings.
...
Amida Buddha as an Enlightened Person with his transcendent body, will last eternally as the 13th Vow promises. Even “a hundred thousand kotis of nayutas of kalpas” is still limited timewhen measuring the life span of Amida, so thissymbolical number is mentioned again to suggest the infinite andimpossible to calculate life of this Buddha’s body.


Jodoshu.

From Honen's Commentary on the Three Sutras of Pure Land Buddhism (Promise of Amida Buddha, p. 77):

Moreover, in order to provide eternal deliverance for sentient beings through the essential vow, Amida Buddha vowed that his lifespan will be immeasurable. This is the thirteenth vow. To summarize, while the vow of immeasurable light was designed to reach all sentient beings throughout space; the vow of infinite life was designed to benefit all sentient beings throughout time.

Chinese Pure Land.

From Ouyi's commentary to the Smaller Sutra:

infinite life extends through time and reaches through past, present, and future ... Because sentient beings and Buddhas are inherently equal, those who invoke the name of Amitabha will be no different from him either in their light or in their life span. ... Given the truth of infinite life, the people in the Land of Ultimate Bliss are in the position that they are certain of attaining complete enlightenment in a single lifetime, and will not be reborn in different forms.
...
The life span of Amitabha Buddha is infinite, and here when the sutra just speaks of ten eons, this is just a provisional way of teaching. In fact Amitabha's time has been endless, and he has urged, is urging, and will urge all the sentient beings of the past, present, and future to quickly seek birth in the Pure Land, share in the infinite life of the Buddhas, and accomplish this all in one lifetime.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby sinweiy » Wed May 22, 2013 1:51 am

Astus wrote:
The life of the Buddha of Infinite Life is so long that it is impossible for anyone to calculate it. To give an illustration, let us suppose that all the innumerable sentient beings in the worlds of the ten quarters were reborn in human form and that every one became a shravaka or pratyekabuddha. Even if they assembled in one place, concentrated their thoughts, and exercised the power of their wisdom to the utmost to reckon the length of the Buddha's life, even after a thousand million kalpas they still would not reach its limit.


Nice!

in the Amitabha Sutra we see:-
Moreover, Shariputra, the life of that Buddha and that of his people extends for measureless, limitless Asankhyeya kalpas 无量无边阿僧祇劫. For this reason he is called Amitabha.

measureless, limitless Asankhyeya kalpas are actually number units of Buddhism.
1 Asankhyeya = 1^59
无量 measureless = Asankhyeya x Asankhyeya
无边 limitless = 无量 measureless x 无量 measureless.

this are the time units in Mahayana in "Exponential" order:-
Asankhyeya 阿僧祇, measureless 无量, limitless 无边, non-edual无等, cannot be counted不可数, cannot be named不可称, cannot be pondered不可思, cannot be measured不可量, cannot be said不可说, cannot be said, cannot be said不可说不可说.

so we see, Asankhyeya, measureless, limitless is only the first three! "cannot be said, cannot be said" is last. :o
_/\_
Amituofo!

"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Astus » Wed May 22, 2013 9:24 am

sinweiy wrote:measureless, limitless Asankhyeya kalpas are actually number units of Buddhism.
1 Asankhyeya = 1^59

so we see, Asankhyeya, measureless, limitless is only the first three! "cannot be said, cannot be said" is last. :o


"even after a thousand million kalpas they still would not reach its limit"

If there were actual numbers that could be given in measurable time as you just did, it wouldn't take long at all to count it. By the way, what gives you these numbers, what is your source? Even in the Abhidharmakosha there is no actual number given for a kalpa that could be reduced to human years.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby sinweiy » Thu May 23, 2013 2:45 am

Astus wrote:
sinweiy wrote:measureless, limitless Asankhyeya kalpas are actually number units of Buddhism.
1 Asankhyeya = 1^59

so we see, Asankhyeya, measureless, limitless is only the first three! "cannot be said, cannot be said" is last. :o


"even after a thousand million kalpas they still would not reach its limit"

If there were actual numbers that could be given in measurable time as you just did, it wouldn't take long at all to count it. By the way, what gives you these numbers, what is your source? Even in the Abhidharmakosha there is no actual number given for a kalpa that could be reduced to human years.


good point. i got or heard from old Master Chin Kung. should Not have use Asankhyeya=1^59 to be a confirmed unit. Exponential meaning is still correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asankhyeya
An asankhyeya (Sanskrit: असंख्येय) is a Hindu/Buddhist name for the number 10^140 or alternatively for the number ___as it is listed in the Avatamsaka Sutra. Depending on the translation, the value is different. It is _____in the translation of Buddhabhadra,_____ in that of Shikshananda and _____ in that of Thomas Cleary who makes errors in the calculation.

Asamkhyeya is a Sanskrit word that appears often in the Buddhist texts. For example, Shakyamuni Buddha is said to have practiced for three great asamkhyeya kalpas before becoming a Buddha. Asamkhyeya means ‘incalculable’. Bhiksu Jin Yong "How Large is One Asamkhyeya?"

The word "asankhyeya" literally means "innumerable" in the sense of "infinite" in Sanskrit. It is also a title of Vishnu and of Shiva. The word comes up in Vishnu Sahasranama Stanza 27, "Asankyeyo-aprameyaatmaa" One who has innumerable names and forms.


Asamkhyeya means ‘incalculable’ is good enough and suit your quote. :smile:

did a search:-
"cannot be said"(anabhilapya)
... that cannot be put into words” (anabhilåpya(dharma)-cakra,
http://www.academia.edu/2243957/On_Avaivartika_and_Avaivartikacakra_in_Mahayana_Buddhist_Literature_with_special_reference_to_the_Lotus_Sutra
In other words, because it is inexpressible( anabhilapya) and inconceivable(acintya) in its result aspect or its pure

http://www.scribd.com/doc/57655882/6/I- ... U-DOCTRINE

http://baike.baidu.com/view/1357952.htm

i think get the first "Unit" to mean something, then follow by the rest in Exponential order; measureless, limitless etc to cannot be said/anabhilapya. then it will all varies according to the person perceiving of the first unit.

even the word 'kalpa' varies according to different perspectives. small, medium, great is the usual adjectives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalpa_(aeon)
_/\_
Amituofo!

"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Astus » Thu May 23, 2013 10:57 am

sinweiy,

On one hand, neither kalpa nor the modifying "numbers" are fixed. Here is a very nice summary with a chart at the end: How Large is One Asamkhyeya? (PDF). On the other hand, both the sutras and the commentaries state that Amita's lifespan is not limited by any temporal measurement. He is there as long as there are sentient beings to save, this is the essence of the 13th vow. While there are different interpretations of Sukhavati and Amitabha Buddha, several Pure Land teachers - including the Jodo and Jodoshin schools - view his life as literally unbound and infinite. Xing Guang in "The Concept of the Buddha" (p 168) explains briefly how this idea of infinity (of life and light) is very much based on Buddhist teachings (from Mahasamghika in this case) and not other sources as some thought (from Zoroastrian mainly). Ven. Xuanhua connects in his commectary the infinite lifespan to the permanent quality of nirvana.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby sinweiy » Fri May 24, 2013 9:06 am

great, first I read:

In conclusion, one asamkhyeya may be as small as 10^51
or as large as 10^74,436,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, or somewhere
in between, depending on the text source. The upper bound
is based on Gandavyuha whose sequence of numbers is most
extensive among all sources.
_/\_
Amituofo!

"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby zamotcr » Sat May 25, 2013 3:15 am

Astus wrote:Jodoshinshu.

From Kyogyoshinsho, chapter 5:

If, when I attain Buddhahood, my life-span should be limited, even to the extent of a hundred thousand kotis of nayutas of kalpas, may I not attain perfect Enlightenment.
(The 13th Vow - the Vow of Immeasurable Life)

The life of the Buddha of Infinite Life is so long that it is impossible for anyone to calculate it. To give an illustration, let us suppose that all the innumerable sentient beings in the worlds of the ten quarters were reborn in human form and that every one became a shravaka or pratyekabuddha. Even if they assembled in one place, concentrated their thoughts, and exercised the power of their wisdom to the utmost to reckon the length of the Buddha's life, even after a thousand million kalpas they still would not reach its limit.
(Fulfillment of the 13th Vows - the Larger Sutra)

Since Amida attained Buddhahood, ten kalpas have passed;
His life-span is indeed beyond measure.

(T'an-luan's Hymns in Praise of Amida Buddha)

From The 48 Vows of Amida Buddha, p. 13-14: (also see here only the chapter)

This vow simply means that his transcendent manifestation(Sambhogakaya body or Dharmakaya as compassionate means) will last forever for the benefit of all beings.
...
Amida Buddha as an Enlightened Person with his transcendent body, will last eternally as the 13th Vow promises. Even “a hundred thousand kotis of nayutas of kalpas” is still limited timewhen measuring the life span of Amida, so thissymbolical number is mentioned again to suggest the infinite andimpossible to calculate life of this Buddha’s body.


Jodoshu.

From Honen's Commentary on the Three Sutras of Pure Land Buddhism (Promise of Amida Buddha, p. 77):

Moreover, in order to provide eternal deliverance for sentient beings through the essential vow, Amida Buddha vowed that his lifespan will be immeasurable. This is the thirteenth vow. To summarize, while the vow of immeasurable light was designed to reach all sentient beings throughout space; the vow of infinite life was designed to benefit all sentient beings throughout time.

Chinese Pure Land.

From Ouyi's commentary to the Smaller Sutra:

infinite life extends through time and reaches through past, present, and future ... Because sentient beings and Buddhas are inherently equal, those who invoke the name of Amitabha will be no different from him either in their light or in their life span. ... Given the truth of infinite life, the people in the Land of Ultimate Bliss are in the position that they are certain of attaining complete enlightenment in a single lifetime, and will not be reborn in different forms.
...
The life span of Amitabha Buddha is infinite, and here when the sutra just speaks of ten eons, this is just a provisional way of teaching. In fact Amitabha's time has been endless, and he has urged, is urging, and will urge all the sentient beings of the past, present, and future to quickly seek birth in the Pure Land, share in the infinite life of the Buddhas, and accomplish this all in one lifetime.


Astus, I read everywhere that Amitabha is infinite in time, as you said. Also, Master Shan Tao said that Amitabha is in Sambhogakaya form, but it is said that Amitabha will enter into Paranirvana in avery distant future and Avalokiteshvara will take his place. Are Sambhogakayas eternal or they have a beginning and an ending? I think Shan Tao answer this issue of Amitabha's Paranirvana, but I don't know.
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Son of Buddha » Sat May 25, 2013 10:04 pm

What does the sutra say about the subject?

Ive never read in the sutra that Amitabha will stepdown go into parinirvana and a bodhisattva will take over his pureland.
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby plwk » Sun May 26, 2013 2:51 am

What does the sutra say about the subject?
Ive never read in the sutra that Amitabha will stepdown go into parinirvana and a bodhisattva will take over his pureland.

The Buddha said, “Good man, although Amitābha Buddha’s lifespan will last innumerable hundreds, thousands, and koṭis of kalpas, it will finally come to an end. Good man, after incalculable distant kalpas to come, Amitābha Buddha will enter parinirvāṇa. After His parinirvāṇa, the true Dharma will continue for as long as His lifespan. The number of sentient beings that will be delivered will equal that during His life. After Amitābha’s parinirvāṇa, some sentient beings there will not be able to see a Buddha. However, Bodhisattvas who have attained the Thinking-of-Buddhas Samādhi will constantly see Amitābha Buddha. Furthermore, good man, after His parinirvāṇa, all the precious things, such as bathing ponds, lotus flowers, and jeweled trees in lines, will continue to sound Dharma tones, in the same way as during that Buddha’s life.

“Good man, [the night] Amitābha Buddha’s true Dharma ends, after the midnight period, when the dawn breaks, Avalokiteśvara Bodhisattva, seated cross-legged under the bodhi tree made of the seven treasures, will attain anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi. He will be called Universal Radiance Virtue Mountain King, the Tathāgata, Arhat, Samyak-Saṁbuddha, Knowledge and Action Perfected, Sugata, Understanding the World, Unsurpassed One, Tamer of Men, Teacher to Gods and Humans, Buddha the World-Honored One. His Buddha Land will be naturally made of the seven treasures. Even in kalpas as numerous as the sands of the Ganges, Buddha-Bhagavāns will not be able to finish describing its splendors. Good man, I now give you an analogy. As Golden Light Lion Frolic Tathāgata’s land was magnificent, Universal Radiance Virtue Mountain King Tathāgata’s land will surpass it billions of times, koṭis of times, koṭis of billions of times, even beyond reckoning. The names ‘voice-hearers’ and ‘Pratyekabuddhas’ will be nonexistent in that Buddha’s land. Only Bodhisattvas will fill His land.”

Flower Virtue Store Bodhisattva asked the Buddha, “World-Honored One, will that Buddha’s land still be called Peace and Bliss?”
The Buddha replied, “Good man, that Buddha’s land will be called Adorned with Gathering of Multitudinous Treasures. Good man, until His parinirvāṇa, Universal Radiance Virtue Mountain King Tathāgata will be attended personally by Great Might Arrived Bodhisattva and will receive his offerings. After His parinirvāṇa, His true Dharma will be upheld [by Great Might Arrived Bodhisattva] until its end. After the end of the true Dharma, Great Might Arrived Bodhisattva will, in that land, attain anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi. He will be called Well Established Virtue Treasure King, the Tathāgata, Arhat, Samyak-Saṁbuddha, Knowledge and Action Perfected, Sugata, Understanding the World, Unsurpassed One, Tamer of Men, Teacher to Gods and Humans, Buddha the World-Honored One. His land, His radiance, His lifespan, His Bodhisattvas, and even the duration of His Dharma will be just like those of Universal Radiance Virtue Mountain King Tathāgata. If, among good men and good women, there are those who have heard the name Well Established Virtue Treasure King Tathāgata, they will not regress from their resolve to attain anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi.
Sūtra of the Prophecy Bestowed upon Avalokiteśvara Bodhisattva
...and a bodhisattva will take over his pureland

Then Ananda asked the Buddha: "Bhagavan, what is the name of this Bodhisattva-Mahasattva, who is so good to teach us this Dharani?"
The Buddha said: "This Bodhisattva is called Avalokitesvara, the Unrestricted One, also called Nipping a Lariat, also called A Thousand Bright Eyes.
Virtuous man, this Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva has unimaginable mighty and holy powers. Uncountable kalpas before, he had already been a Buddha named True Dharma Brightness Tathagata. Because of the power of His great compassionate vows, and in order to call upon all Bodhisattvas to comfort and please all living beings, He appears as a Bodhisattva.
All of you, including the Bodhisattvas, Brahmas, Gods of the 33 heavens, dragons, and divinities, should show respect to Him, do not despise Him.
All heavenly and human beings should constantly make offerings to Him and recite His name absorbedly, then they will get infinite blessings and eliminate countless sins, and at the end of their lives, they will be reborn in the Pure Land of Amitabha Buddha."
The Thousand-Handed and Thousand-Eyed Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva's Vast, Perfect, Unimpeded, Great-Compassionate Heart Dharani Sutra
Ive never read in the sutra...
Now you do... :reading:
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun May 26, 2013 4:20 am

Hey Plwk
Thanks for the sutra passages.

Do you have an list of sutras that go into detail about Amitabha Buddhas pureland?
(I ask cause I have never heard of the sutra you posted from and wonder if there are more I havent read)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Huifeng » Sun May 26, 2013 6:29 am

For Indian and Chinese perspectives on Buddha fields / pure lands, best not to think that there is some definitive "school" that has a definitive orthodox doctrine on this (or any other) matter. Different people understood it differently at different times. In general, the more recent Chinese interpretations tend to be very similar to a general early to mid-period Mahayana. By this, Amitabha, like any other Buddha, also has a parinirvana. Whether or not this is actual, or just a display, is another question on top of that.

~~ Huifeng
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby plwk » Sun May 26, 2013 8:19 am

Hey Plwk
Thanks for the sutra passages.

Do you have an list of sutras that go into detail about Amitabha Buddhas pureland?
(I ask cause I have never heard of the sutra you posted from and wonder if there are more I havent read)

From my limited experience, the 5 Sutras and 1 Treatise plus the Pratyutpanna Samadhi Sutra are the main course.
Every other Sutra have only slight glimpses or mention on Amitabha & Sukhavati and you know by now how vast is the Mahayana Sutra collection if one were to do a painstaking combing of it. Even the ones I quoted are because I did my own personal collection of Sutras related to Avalokitesvara and haven't even started yet on the Mahastamaprapta / Vajrapani ones. Sometimes, my exposure to the Tibetan Tradition also proved helpful as I found some texts related to Amitabha / Amitayus like this one for instance as another facet of the Pure Land study and practice.
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Astus » Sun May 26, 2013 4:29 pm

plwk wrote:Now you do... :reading:


That is, sutras propagating Amitabha say he lives indefinitely, those about Avalokitesvara say he will take over Sukhavati. So the answer lies in defining which sutras one regards as definitive. For the Pure Land schools it is the former.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Son of Buddha » Sun May 26, 2013 11:43 pm

Astus wrote:
plwk wrote:Now you do... :reading:


That is, sutras propagating Amitabha say he lives indefinitely, those about Avalokitesvara say he will take over Sukhavati. So the answer lies in defining which sutras one regards as definitive. For the Pure Land schools it is the former.


Both views are correct.
The Lotus sutras shows that the Buddha attained Enlightenment long in the past,and that he manifests into the world,then manifests parinirvana exiting the world.
The Nirvana sutra confirms this and furthers shows the Buddhas has done this over and over again kinda like recycling himself,manifesting into a world then manifesting parinirvana,then manifesting into the world then manifesting parinirvana.

Amitabha Buddha would seem to be following this model.

As far as provisional and definite goes,the definite teachings doesnt say the provisional teachings are lies,the provisionals teachings are simply only half the picture,while all the provisional is true,not all of the information is provided in the provisional.
While the definite is also true,all the information is provided in the definite teaching.

Peace and Love
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby LastLegend » Mon May 27, 2013 12:03 am

My reasoning is this Pure Land and manifestations of Amitabha are conditioned relatively to Samsara that they are merely there to help sentient beings. They are still subject to change. We must remember that "lives" and anything that takes "forms" are subject to change. But does not mean nothing exists in a nihilistic sense. Apparently things come to into being due to conditions, and depart due to conditions ending. Where does Buddha go after Parinirvana?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)
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