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The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Exploring modern Theravāda interpretations of the Buddha's teaching.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:29 pm

Thanks for digging out those quotes, Pulga.

Apart from the dense writing style, to me Ven Ñānavīra's comments on the development sati, etc sound quite similar to the other expositions that I am familiar with. Which would not be surprising given that the source is the same Suttas and monastic environment that is the source of a number of other works.

Of course I could be missing something, and if there is a difference I'd be interested to hear what it is.

:anjali:
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby SDC » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:50 pm


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:46 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:13 am

Hi everyone.

From the passage quoted by SDC:

In contrast to the puthujjana, the arahat has altogether got rid of asmimāna (not to speak of attavāda—see MAMA), and does not even think 'I am'. This is bhavanirodha, cessation of being. And since he does not think 'I am' he also does not think 'I was born' or 'I shall die'. In other words, he sees no 'self' or even 'I' for the words birth and death to apply to. This is jātinirodha and jarāmarananirodha. (See, in Kosala Samy. i,3 <S.i,71>, how the words birth and death are avoided when the arahat is spoken of.

Nanavira says: "This is bhavanirodha, cessation of being."

I assume he is speaking of the arahat here.

My question is:

Does bhavanirodha ( cessation of being ) imply the cessation of all the preceding links in the DO series?

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby Sherab » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:49 am


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby ancientbuddhism » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:56 pm

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby pulga » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:38 pm


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:48 pm

Hi Pulga,

Sorry, that didn't help. It seems to me that Nanavira's discussion of practice is pretty standard, in terms of paying attention and not seeing any particular phenomenon as special. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm just trying to figure out what would be considered novel.

Apart, of course, from his particular interpretations of dependent origination, but that seems to me to have no impact on his discussion of sati.

:anjali:
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby Moth » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:03 pm

Does anyone here understand Fundamental Structure, or at least what the general idea of it is? I made an attempt at it yesterday and... :shrug: Seems somehow related to Liner Algebra and Linear Transformations but in the context of namarupa.
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby daverupa » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:13 pm


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby Moth » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:18 pm

What is he trying to represent exactly? The way perception works?
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby daverupa » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:39 pm


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:57 pm

Hi everyone,

Further on, in section 22, Ven. Nanavira says:

"....and avijjanirodha sankharanirodho is true of the arahat."

[ ie. ignorance and formations (sankhara) have ceased. ]

"It is right to say that with a living arahat there is
still consciousness, name-and-matter, six-bases, contact,
and feeling, but only in a certain sense."

So he seems to think that these five things remain, but
only in a certain sense.

Can someone post section 22, or the first half of it?

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby SDC » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:28 pm


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:19 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby SDC » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:15 am


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:20 am

Sure, I think he's got some interesting points, but to me isn't any more interesting than many other teachers/commentators. And his writing is much more obscure than his actual ideas.

:anjali:
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby SDC » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:11 pm


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:20 pm

Hi everyone,

It seems that the Ven. Nanavira did strongly believe in
rebirth himself, and yet he came up with a new interpretation
of DO in which all the links pertain to this life.

This new interpretation has proved to be attractive to many
who would prefer not to believe in literal rebirth.

How can we explain this apparent paradox?

The three-lifetimes interpretation of DO is in conflict with
many other aspects of the teachings. The most serious conflict
is with the stock passage which begins:

With the cessation of ignorance volitional-formations
cease. With the cessation of volitional-formations
consciousness ceases. ( and so on. )

How do the supporters of the three-lifetimes model deal with
the conflict with the passage above? By completely ignoring
it.

The Ven. Nanavira's model is more in agreement with some of
those other aspects of the teachings. But it is still in
serious conflict with the stock passage above.

This is because Ven. Nanavira was starting from the three
lifetimes model, and moving away from it to a better model.
This was really a 'work-in-progress' which was never
completed.

We are still waiting for someone to complete the project
and arrive at a model which is not in conflict with the key
stock passage above.

However, it is already clear that such a model - while not
denying rebirth - would fail to validate it.
If you believed in rebirth which model would you choose?

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:28 pm



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