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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:44 pm 
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I was looking through "Buddhism and Dzogchen" by Capriles, and I came across this reference:

Reid, Daniel - Practice Makes Perfect: Common Grounds in the Practice Paths of Chuan Chen Tao and Dzogchen Dharma
Conway, Mass, The Mirror # 63, December 2002/January 2003, pp. 26-7.

Turns out it's online here:
http://danreid.org/daniel-reid-articles-practice-makes-perfect-dzogchen-chuanchen.asp
(Chuan Chen = Quanzhen)

I just started to look through it, and he seems to be more or less equating Dzogchen with Quanzhen,
which seems a little odd to me.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:19 am 
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Very interesting and fabulously weird. Maybe this is the missing link - instead of dzogchen having its roots in Chan, it really has its roots in Taoist neidan?

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 3:49 pm 
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pueraeternus wrote:
Very interesting and fabulously weird. Maybe this is the missing link - instead of dzogchen having its roots in Chan, it really has its roots in Taoist neidan?


“Practice Makes Perfect: Proceed Onward!” who can argue with that!

The key point is that in the old days the recluses, on the far side of the mountain, used to get together to compare notes / share the tsampa etc., and so there was a sharing and melding of all traditions.

I trust the translations of the Cleary Brothers and recommend their translations of Taoist material.

I recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/Opening-Dragon-Ga ... ist+wizard

used, under $6, as a way of learning an overview about the practice tradition within one Taoist school.

As far as roots of Dzogchen, the retired Professor, ChNNR has published several excellent history books where he traces the roots of Dzogchen to the Shang Shung area of Tibet, near Mt. Kailash.

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... detail&p=7

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... etail&p=32

ob


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 4:34 pm 
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oldbob wrote:

As far as roots of Dzogchen, the retired Professor, ChNNR has published several excellent history books where he traces the roots of Dzogchen to the Shang Shung area of Tibet, near Mt. Kailash.

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... detail&p=7

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... etail&p=32

ob


OB, are you saying ChNN is saying that Garab Dorje got it from the Bonpos?

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 5:45 pm 
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oldbob wrote:
I recommend:

http://www.amazon.com/Opening-Dragon-Ga ... ist+wizard

used, under $6, as a way of learning an overview about the practice tradition within one Taoist school.

That was quite an enjoyable read, but it's a bit of a tall tale, don't you think?

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:12 pm 
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Hi all,

If we consider the main sources of Dzogchen...:

Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche, the Twelve Dzogchen Teachers (Nangwa Dampa, Dorje Chang, Ngöndzog Gyalpo, Budddha Shakyamuni, etc.), Garab Dorje, Tapihritsa, Drenpa Namkha, Guru Rinpoche Padmasambhava, etc.

...there's no need to say that Dzogchen developed from this particular place, or a from that particular combination of other traditions, etc.

Dzogchen came from Dzogchen, even if its historical development over time influenced and was influenced by other traditions (whether it be Indian Vajrayana, Anuyoga from Sri Lanka and Kyrgyzstan, Chan/Zen, Shaivism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, etc.).

I'm also willing to bet that the founders of most or at least many traditions (i.e. even non-Buddhist ones) were likely emanations of Buddhas (and Fully Realized Buddhas are Vidyadhara Dzogchenpa's because they have Rigpa or Vidya of the gZhi) anyway, if we consider how the Dra Thalgyur Tantra classifies all the Yanas.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:07 pm 
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Lhug-Pa wrote:
Hi all,

If we consider the main sources of Dzogchen...:

Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche, the Twelve Dzogchen Teachers (Nangwa Dampa, Dorje Chang, Ngöndzog Gyalpo, Budddha Shakyamuni, etc.), Garab Dorje, Tapihritsa, Drenpa Namkha, Guru Rinpoche Padmasambhava, etc.

...there's no need to say that Dzogchen developed from this particular place, or a from that particular combination of other traditions, etc.

Dzogchen came from Dzogchen, even if its historical development was influenced over time by other traditions (whether it be Indian Vajrayana, Anuyoga from Sri Lanka and Kyrgyzstan, Chan/Zen, Shaivism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, etc.).

I'm also willing to bet that the founders of all traditions (i.e. even non-Buddhist ones) were likely emanations of Buddhas (and Fully Realized Buddhas are Dzogchenpa's) anyway, if we consider how the Dra Thalgyur Tantra classifies all the Yanas.


:namaste:

:good:

I think that ChNNR was making the point that there were multiple sources for Dzogchen.

Having taken Nyingma, Kargupa, Bonpo and ChNNR's pointing out indication, I feel that they are all the same. Some emphasize this flavor or that flavor, but it is basically the same taste.

Certainly the specifics of the practice path are different, but perhaps the end is the same. I have never practiced, or experienced a pointing out from Chuan Chen Tao, and so cannot compare it. I've enjoyed reading about the Tao, and find a home there too, especially Chuang Tzu.

I actually am not interested in the origins of Dzogchen, or which school came first. This is not important to me at all. What is useful is what matters to me, and that does apply to Chuan Chen Tao, and any path of practice. From the point of view of awareness, how can I label myself as a this or that? Labels don't apply. As a Dzogchen practitioner, I prefer not to limit myself, while observing the minutia of karmic causes and effects. Ya do good = ya get good. The devil IS the details. That works for me.

What is important is how the experience of Dzogchen (or any path) can be integrated into my daily life. For this, the Teachings of ChNNR have been most useful to me.

What applies to me at this point in my life, did not apply at another. Certainly what works for me should never be taken as a "should," for anybody else. :smile:

ob


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 2:48 am 
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No shoulds.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 1:41 pm 
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MalaBeads wrote:
No shoulds.



No shoulds indeed! Hence the smile after. :smile:

http://danreid.org/daniel-reid-articles ... anchen.asp

Unless we are prepared to apply the teachings in a concrete way in our daily lives, and extend our internal awareness to our external activities, we run the risk of becoming what Liu I-ming describes as “vacuous dilettantes … merely skipping rope.” Knowing what’s true but doing what’s false in daily life is sheer hypocrisy and belies the very essence of spiritual practice. As the Dalai Lama notes, “The real practice is daily life.”

Herein lies the grandeur of the Dzog Chen and Chuan Chen vision – the realization that self-perfection is possible in this very lifetime, and that awareness and energy may be fully integrated in every activity of body, speech, and mind. It’s a vision of Great Perfection and Complete Reality that every individual on earth has the potential to realize in his or her own life, but that few have the patience and persistance to pursue. For those who do, the same signpost appears again and again at every milestone along the path: “Practice Makes Perfect: Proceed Onward!”


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:29 am 
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oldbob wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:
No shoulds.



No shoulds indeed! Hence the smile after. :smile:

http://danreid.org/daniel-reid-articles ... anchen.asp

Unless we are prepared to apply the teachings in a concrete way in our daily lives, and extend our internal awareness to our external activities, we run the risk of becoming what Liu I-ming describes as “vacuous dilettantes … merely skipping rope.” Knowing what’s true but doing what’s false in daily life is sheer hypocrisy and belies the very essence of spiritual practice. As the Dalai Lama notes, “The real practice is daily life.”

Herein lies the grandeur of the Dzog Chen and Chuan Chen vision – the realization that self-perfection is possible in this very lifetime, and that awareness and energy may be fully integrated in every activity of body, speech, and mind. It’s a vision of Great Perfection and Complete Reality that every individual on earth has the potential to realize in his or her own life, but that few have the patience and persistance to pursue. For those who do, the same signpost appears again and again at every milestone along the path: “Practice Makes Perfect: Proceed Onward!”


Good article.

Actually, maybe more than good, but why gush?

:thumbsup:


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