Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

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Gyaltsen Tashi
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Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by Gyaltsen Tashi »

Dear all,

Upon the attainment of Buddhahood, does subjectivity based on personal history cease? Do all Buddhas agree on everything since they realised the same truth?

Regards,
Gyaltsen Tashi
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Gyaltsen Tashi wrote:Dear all,

Upon the attainment of Buddhahood, does subjectivity based on personal history cease? Do all Buddhas agree on everything since they realised the same truth?

Regards,
Gyaltsen Tashi
You'd have to ask a Buddha to know that.
But I think, ultimately this would be the case
although I would suggest it would be more accurate, rather than to say
since they realised the same truth
to say
since they realised the same nature of truth.

...and that not so much that subjectivity ceases,
but that the duality of subjective and objective is transcended,
because what is perceived (experienced)
objectively, or subjectively,
are seen as emptiness,
and that emptiness (sunyata)is the truth, and the nature of truth, that is realized.
.
.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Astus
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by Astus »

Based on how Shakyamuni appears in the scriptures, he was not only aware of his life after his birth but also all the previous lives he lived. Apparently he did not cease to be a person.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
MalaBeads
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by MalaBeads »

I think the opening post is asking an excellent question. Actually, there are two questions there.

Responding to the second question first actually resolves the first question as well.

You have to understand, this only how i see it. As we say in English, your mileage may vary.

To the second question i would say NO. Buddhas do not agree on everything. Yes, all Buddhas are Buddhas but they each have their own dharma.

Which of course leads to the first question, something I've been pondering myself. "Does subjectivity based on personal history cease?"

I would say NO to this as well. As long as we have a body, there will be personal history and subjectivity. Certainly we can learn to use this subjectivity for the relief of our own suffering and that of others but we can never be rid of it. Even if we were to become zombie-like, it would still arise in our minds. (I am thinking of some of the poems of Nyoshul Khen there).

Good questions.
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Gyaltsen Tashi
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by Gyaltsen Tashi »

If Buddhas disagree on a course of action, then what happens?
Nikolay
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by Nikolay »

I do not think Buddhas can "disagree", but they can teach different things as skillful means.

Regarding subjectivity, I do not understand how exactly it is related to personal history.
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Gyaltsen Tashi
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by Gyaltsen Tashi »

A related question and something much more relevant to us, for those on the path as Buddhists, does our personal history matter as we are striving to attain non-duality and to let go of all our baggage? Should we forgo our subjective experiences and not cling to them? Do we have to work through out personal history to reach the Dharma? Or is Dharma something apart from our personal history?
Gyaltsen Tashi
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by Gyaltsen Tashi »

Nikolay wrote:
Regarding subjectivity, I do not understand how exactly it is related to personal history.
We form subjective opinions based on our personal history.
MalaBeads
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by MalaBeads »

Gyaltsen Tashi wrote:A related question and something much more relevant to us, for those on the path as Buddhists, does our personal history matter as we are striving to attain non-duality and to let go of all our baggage? Should we forgo our subjective experiences and not cling to them? Do we have to work through out personal history to reach the Dharma? Or is Dharma something apart from our personal history?
All good questions, GT.
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Nikolay
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by Nikolay »

Gyaltsen Tashi wrote: We form subjective opinions based on our personal history.
Ah, ok. I am more used to seeing this word used in meaning related to subject/object and such.
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Wayfarer
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by Wayfarer »

End of self-interest, yes. End of subjective judgements, I would think so. But I think you have to be careful not to negate the personal altogether, otherwise it results simply in 'depersonalization'. I think the 'realised being' is 'the union of form of emptiness' and is the expression of tathata in every moment. And the concern of the mahayana is always with 'every sentient being' - and beings are subjects. So the 'end of subjectivity' is a rather unfortunate expression, I think.
does our personal history matter as we are striving to attain non-duality and to let go of all our baggage?
How could it not? Without it, we wouldn't have anything to let go of.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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lobster
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by lobster »

Astus wrote:Apparently he did not cease to be a person.
Exactly.
Person, personality and Buddha Nature are aspects of being.

The enlightened Buddhas have a person, the physical and mental mantle.
They have a personality. The route through Dukkha to the far shore, will reflect in their expression and dharma.
They are as awake beings, the same in awareness and nature, to all enlightened persons, across time, space and religions. They are of the same essence and speak and act from the same nature of being.

:zzz: If your teachers are not awake then subjectivity is all they can offer . . . that is why we need more Buddhas and less :zzz:
Gyaltsen Tashi
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by Gyaltsen Tashi »

jeeprs wrote:
does our personal history matter as we are striving to attain non-duality and to let go of all our baggage?
How could it not? Without it, we wouldn't have anything to let go of.
Does that mean I have to continue with my therapy first?
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Wayfarer
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by Wayfarer »

I think the answer is 'whatever it takes'. Besides no-one should take advice about whether or not to continue with therapy from an Internet forum.

Anyway, whatever exists for us - whatever 'comes up' - is there for a reason. I think the Buddhist approach can only be to learn to see it as it is without either rationalising it or denying it. That means being 'less subjective' in a sense, without denying the reality of your own existence.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
MalaBeads
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by MalaBeads »

Gyaltsen Tashi wrote:If Buddhas disagree on a course of action, then what happens?
Seems to me you are taking a personal question here and turning it into a theoretical one. Whatever "buddhas" may disagree about is between them. It is not a theoretical issue but an intensely specific one.

One way to answer such a question, at a distance and without being involved, would be to say, "Who knows?"

:shrug:
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by undefineable »

lobster wrote:The enlightened Buddhas have a person
Nicely put (with my emphasis!) - Fully realising sunyata (along with whatever else as relevant) would make them unlikely, one would think, to imagine that they *are* people at any meaningful level.

What this would mean for subjectivity is anyone's guess
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hop.pala
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by hop.pala »

"The enlightened Buddhas have a person, the physical and mental mantle"
You speak only about yourself,and not about Buddha.In tibetan practice where imagine yourself as an Buddha think that imagine the mental mantle or physical body?
Gyaltsen Tashi
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by Gyaltsen Tashi »

Relevant?

Don't Take Your Life Personally [Paperback]
Ajahn Sumedho
http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Take-Your-Li ... 0946672318
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by seeker242 »

MalaBeads wrote:
Which of course leads to the first question, something I've been pondering myself. "Does subjectivity based on personal history cease?"

I would say NO to this as well. As long as we have a body, there will be personal history and subjectivity.
"So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.'

Is it a mistake to think you have a body to begin with? :shrug:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Post by MalaBeads »

seeker242 wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:
Which of course leads to the first question, something I've been pondering myself. "Does subjectivity based on personal history cease?"

I would say NO to this as well. As long as we have a body, there will be personal history and subjectivity.
"So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.'

Is it a mistake to think you have a body to begin with? :shrug:
No, its not a mistake to think you have a body but it might be a mistake to think you ARE that body and grasp onto whatever arises in that continuum, saying "This is me".

Whatever arises is impermanent, including the body itself.

Awareness however can suffuse the body. But awareness is "not me" either. It's just awareness.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
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