Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

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Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby Gyaltsen Tashi » Sun May 19, 2013 11:11 am

Dear all,

Upon the attainment of Buddhahood, does subjectivity based on personal history cease? Do all Buddhas agree on everything since they realised the same truth?

Regards,
Gyaltsen Tashi
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sun May 19, 2013 12:46 pm

Gyaltsen Tashi wrote:Dear all,

Upon the attainment of Buddhahood, does subjectivity based on personal history cease? Do all Buddhas agree on everything since they realised the same truth?

Regards,
Gyaltsen Tashi


You'd have to ask a Buddha to know that.
But I think, ultimately this would be the case
although I would suggest it would be more accurate, rather than to say
since they realised the same truth
to say
since they realised the same nature of truth.

...and that not so much that subjectivity ceases,
but that the duality of subjective and objective is transcended,
because what is perceived (experienced)
objectively, or subjectively,
are seen as emptiness,
and that emptiness (sunyata)is the truth, and the nature of truth, that is realized.
.
.
.
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby Astus » Sun May 19, 2013 1:09 pm

Based on how Shakyamuni appears in the scriptures, he was not only aware of his life after his birth but also all the previous lives he lived. Apparently he did not cease to be a person.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

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Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby MalaBeads » Sun May 19, 2013 2:19 pm

I think the opening post is asking an excellent question. Actually, there are two questions there.

Responding to the second question first actually resolves the first question as well.

You have to understand, this only how i see it. As we say in English, your mileage may vary.

To the second question i would say NO. Buddhas do not agree on everything. Yes, all Buddhas are Buddhas but they each have their own dharma.

Which of course leads to the first question, something I've been pondering myself. "Does subjectivity based on personal history cease?"

I would say NO to this as well. As long as we have a body, there will be personal history and subjectivity. Certainly we can learn to use this subjectivity for the relief of our own suffering and that of others but we can never be rid of it. Even if we were to become zombie-like, it would still arise in our minds. (I am thinking of some of the poems of Nyoshul Khen there).

Good questions.
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby Gyaltsen Tashi » Sun May 19, 2013 4:20 pm

If Buddhas disagree on a course of action, then what happens?
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby Nikolay » Sun May 19, 2013 5:27 pm

I do not think Buddhas can "disagree", but they can teach different things as skillful means.

Regarding subjectivity, I do not understand how exactly it is related to personal history.
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby Gyaltsen Tashi » Mon May 20, 2013 2:07 am

A related question and something much more relevant to us, for those on the path as Buddhists, does our personal history matter as we are striving to attain non-duality and to let go of all our baggage? Should we forgo our subjective experiences and not cling to them? Do we have to work through out personal history to reach the Dharma? Or is Dharma something apart from our personal history?
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby Gyaltsen Tashi » Mon May 20, 2013 2:08 am

Nikolay wrote:
Regarding subjectivity, I do not understand how exactly it is related to personal history.


We form subjective opinions based on our personal history.
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby MalaBeads » Mon May 20, 2013 2:22 am

Gyaltsen Tashi wrote:A related question and something much more relevant to us, for those on the path as Buddhists, does our personal history matter as we are striving to attain non-duality and to let go of all our baggage? Should we forgo our subjective experiences and not cling to them? Do we have to work through out personal history to reach the Dharma? Or is Dharma something apart from our personal history?


All good questions, GT.
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby Nikolay » Mon May 20, 2013 4:05 am

Gyaltsen Tashi wrote:We form subjective opinions based on our personal history.

Ah, ok. I am more used to seeing this word used in meaning related to subject/object and such.
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby Wayfarer » Mon May 20, 2013 8:48 am

End of self-interest, yes. End of subjective judgements, I would think so. But I think you have to be careful not to negate the personal altogether, otherwise it results simply in 'depersonalization'. I think the 'realised being' is 'the union of form of emptiness' and is the expression of tathata in every moment. And the concern of the mahayana is always with 'every sentient being' - and beings are subjects. So the 'end of subjectivity' is a rather unfortunate expression, I think.

does our personal history matter as we are striving to attain non-duality and to let go of all our baggage?


How could it not? Without it, we wouldn't have anything to let go of.
Learn to do good, refrain from evil, purify the mind ~ this is the teaching of the Buddhas
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby lobster » Mon May 20, 2013 9:09 am

Astus wrote:Apparently he did not cease to be a person.


Exactly.
Person, personality and Buddha Nature are aspects of being.

The enlightened Buddhas have a person, the physical and mental mantle.
They have a personality. The route through Dukkha to the far shore, will reflect in their expression and dharma.
They are as awake beings, the same in awareness and nature, to all enlightened persons, across time, space and religions. They are of the same essence and speak and act from the same nature of being.

:zzz: If your teachers are not awake then subjectivity is all they can offer . . . that is why we need more Buddhas and less :zzz:
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby Gyaltsen Tashi » Mon May 20, 2013 12:04 pm

jeeprs wrote:
does our personal history matter as we are striving to attain non-duality and to let go of all our baggage?


How could it not? Without it, we wouldn't have anything to let go of.


Does that mean I have to continue with my therapy first?
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby Wayfarer » Mon May 20, 2013 12:54 pm

I think the answer is 'whatever it takes'. Besides no-one should take advice about whether or not to continue with therapy from an Internet forum.

Anyway, whatever exists for us - whatever 'comes up' - is there for a reason. I think the Buddhist approach can only be to learn to see it as it is without either rationalising it or denying it. That means being 'less subjective' in a sense, without denying the reality of your own existence.
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby MalaBeads » Mon May 20, 2013 5:13 pm

Gyaltsen Tashi wrote:If Buddhas disagree on a course of action, then what happens?


Seems to me you are taking a personal question here and turning it into a theoretical one. Whatever "buddhas" may disagree about is between them. It is not a theoretical issue but an intensely specific one.

One way to answer such a question, at a distance and without being involved, would be to say, "Who knows?"

:shrug:
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby undefineable » Mon May 20, 2013 6:16 pm

lobster wrote:The enlightened Buddhas have a person

Nicely put (with my emphasis!) - Fully realising sunyata (along with whatever else as relevant) would make them unlikely, one would think, to imagine that they *are* people at any meaningful level.

What this would mean for subjectivity is anyone's guess
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby hop.pala » Mon May 20, 2013 6:40 pm

"The enlightened Buddhas have a person, the physical and mental mantle"
You speak only about yourself,and not about Buddha.In tibetan practice where imagine yourself as an Buddha think that imagine the mental mantle or physical body?
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby Gyaltsen Tashi » Tue May 21, 2013 2:30 am

Relevant?

Don't Take Your Life Personally [Paperback]
Ajahn Sumedho
http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Take-Your-Li ... 0946672318
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby seeker242 » Tue May 21, 2013 3:28 am

MalaBeads wrote:
Which of course leads to the first question, something I've been pondering myself. "Does subjectivity based on personal history cease?"

I would say NO to this as well. As long as we have a body, there will be personal history and subjectivity.


"So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.'

Is it a mistake to think you have a body to begin with? :shrug:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Is the attainment of Buddhahood the end of subjectivity?

Postby MalaBeads » Tue May 21, 2013 3:40 am

seeker242 wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:
Which of course leads to the first question, something I've been pondering myself. "Does subjectivity based on personal history cease?"

I would say NO to this as well. As long as we have a body, there will be personal history and subjectivity.


"So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.'

Is it a mistake to think you have a body to begin with? :shrug:


No, its not a mistake to think you have a body but it might be a mistake to think you ARE that body and grasp onto whatever arises in that continuum, saying "This is me".

Whatever arises is impermanent, including the body itself.

Awareness however can suffuse the body. But awareness is "not me" either. It's just awareness.
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