Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:19 pm

In response to this...."In order to be of any benefit to those in the hell realms, you'd likely need to be a Bodhisattva, otherwise you would spend a lot of time being tortured and having your tongue ripped out. But with attainments, you can go team up with Ksitigarbah and help him empty all hells!"

I have no attainments and am certainly no bodhisattva, but I simply don't give a flying capital F.
I and to my view others, have been running from this thing for life upon life upon life.
DEath tongues pulled out nails, disease, friends killed loved ones similiar fate.
I find no I, that can experience these things....so I have no fear of these things.

YOu say that statement is false I cannot be saying what I truly feel. Watch me....I don't give a flying capital F. REmote place wilderness spirit inhabited one misstep death visiting graves graveyards such places, daring taunting death, violence, no home for year upon year, one meal away from starvation in jail in bad and good circumstance.... that is my circumstance.

So you or any of your friends who state I must fear this thing and fear that or other circumstance....take it far away, it is not a person buying this here. No longer will I buy this thing of fear you or others are selling.

So the initial poster.....he should have no fear whatsoever. That can never ever happen. No I can be put one in such a place....only I can put myself in such a place.

HIs spiritual intent is clear and obvious. NO fault is there....not a one. He should have not the slightest fear, not a ioata of fear....he in fact should be emulated as pure faith holder and be quite happy in his faith. He in fact deserves not such fear but happiness in his faith. Which will certainly happen as effect of that thing.

He needs only to see his faith for what it is....pure, as it obviously presents. Seeing it otherwise is what is this fear. It is not so. No hell realm for him. Self contrived it can only be this hell realm so contrived.
Concept of hell only,not hell itself. Concept of samaya breakage only, not samaya breakage at all.

Not ot disregard PM's just prior post...it is a quite excellent informed post of unusual quality. To point it expresses it exactly and most closely adddresses the initial posters quary.
I only respond to counter claim and am just slightly on point. I would contend both responses have equal value but am perhaps biased... :smile:
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby Pero » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:08 pm

kirtu wrote:I think it was Atisha who aid that he held his outer Mahayana vows perfectly but was constantly, daily violating his Vajrayana vows. Vajra hell is not really such an easy place to get to unless you really know what you have gotten into and then consciously violate them.


PemaRigdzin wrote:Well, the teachings say that we cannot break vows which we don't yet understand


Hm actually one way of looking at it is that it's better if you violate a samaya or something and be conscious of it. Because this way you can always purify it.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby Inge » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:06 pm

kirtu wrote:
Inge wrote:Hi.

Lately I have been overcome by severe doubts causing me to fear that I have prematurely entered the Vajrayana.

I have attended a Green Tara empowerment and a Kalachakra empowerment. Both were given without reading transmission and oral explanations.


You can take them (consider them now, after the empowerment) to have been blessings rather than an engagement / commitment to practice. You can however still recite the mantras if you wish.


I attended the Kalachakra empowement with the intention to receive the three sets of vows, and to study and practice Kalachakra in the future. Do you mean that I still might consider it to have been a blessing only?

kirtu wrote:
Inge wrote:I have not been instructed properly in the specifics of the three sets of vows, and based on what I have read about these vows I suppose that I am constantly damaging them. I have not been properly instructid in how to keep the vows and how to purify broken and damaged vows.


I think it was Atisha who aid that he held his outer Mahayana vows perfectly but was constantly, daily violating his Vajrayana vows.


I have also heard this before, but with the addition that he imediately applied the appropriate purification method.

kirtu wrote: Vajra hell is not really such an easy place to get to unless you really know what you have gotten into and then consciously violate them.

I just read the image of the snake in the bamboo tube with only two outcomes. Enlightenment in the top, vajra hell in the bottom.

kirtu wrote:If you are concerned then this means that you have heard of the seriousness of tantra (which is true) AND that you are considering yourself a person who has committed to practice. But you said that the Vajramaster(s) didn't given commitments. So it's up to you.

What I meant is that the Kalachakra empowerment was given without commitments to do Kalachakra Sadhana practice, but it was still given with the pratimokhsa, bodhisattva and tantric vows.

kirtu wrote:The main thing is to hold Bodhicitta and compassion for all beings. Then whether you do any formal practice or not, you will be okay.

While i have gone through the ritual of formally taking the bodhisattva vows, compassion for all beings is absent most of, maybe all, of the time, or just conceptual.

kirtu wrote:
Inge wrote:Or do you recommend something else for me to do to help me keep and purify the vows?


There's always the Three Heap Sutra that anyone can do.

Kirt


Do you know it this Sutra is also for purification of broken tantric vows?
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby Inge » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:20 pm

Pero wrote:
Inge wrote:Isn't the Vajramaster who confers the empowerment automathicly ones Guru?


Yes.


kirtu wrote:I think Atisha had over 100 gurus. However the root guru is the guru who triggered enlightenment, or from whom one realized the nature of mind, or a guru from whom one has taken a highest yoga tantra empowerment. Once can have more than one root guru. In Atisha's case his main guru was the guru in Indonesia from whom Atisha really learned Bodhicitta.

Kirt


Heruka wrote:lol

one must not decide on a root guru, this is a mistake, also one must not choose root guru because one feels some type of vibration in presense, again this is a mistake. a descision is an arrived at thought, a feeling, will pass with time and so on, then one is bound with regret. not good seed for practice, i saw my root guru today and heart lept with joy!


All masters from which one receives an empowerment is ones guru.

Root guru is all gurus who either trigger enlightenment, leads one to realization of the nature of mind or gives highest yoga tantra empowerment.

Is this correct?
What is the difference between recognition and realization of the nature of mind? Is not the teacher who leads one to recognition of nature of mind ones root guru also?
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby Inge » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:33 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:I don't know

Deviates from point I'd guess,..... but if there are sentient beings in this vajra hell.....what better place to practice dharma? The worst of hells....would they not need a kind word there most?..Seems so. If one is all alone....then who to torment but I myself?
And if I myself the tormenter.....they why the fear?
Are we not here ourselves our tormentors?

Was the buddha himself not once a hell beast of sorts, killed by blow to head. As I being but a flea on a sandle a budddha may wear....I may then be in some respect.....be as a buddha was....in hell realm?

So if broken samaya I. Send me quickly there. If compassionate word may be spoken there I will. If not I will not.
Easily said I guess....or is easly said easily said..... I don't know.

To point....
I would guess one could not violate samaya without looseing spiritual intent, the two are intwined. So the only absolute verification of this thing of broken samaya would be in that....do I have lost spiritual intent?
Certainly in this situation discribed....that is not so. Absolutely not. I would say all that have lost spiritual intent do not care that they have done such a thing. Asking about such a thing by the asking infers spiritual intent, and only that.


I don't know anything of any hell realm, can not remember one, but surely there are many descriptions of such places in sutras and commentaries.

If in such a place I could practice kindness and compassion then it might not be so bad, but what if all compassion and kindness are lost in those who enter that realm?

For me, spiritual intent is not lost, but I just recently, very painfully, realized that my intent has been flawed for a long time, and that I had greedily and unsincerely searched for the highest possible teachings, for the shortest possible past, hoping to quickly end my own misery.
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby Inge » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:39 pm

SonamZangpo wrote:Actually, a friend was telling me a story the other day, since I had said once I reached my attainments I would want to go to the hell realms in the following lifetimes, and he said there was an instance where someone intended to do just that, but had generated such great merit in being devoted to that, that he was reborn in a heaven, to his own dismay.



I figure this is why it is important to make vows while on the causal ground.
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby Inge » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:10 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Inge,

The principle samaya is to have respect for the vajramasters that have bestowed empowerment upon one. Also vital is training in bodhicitta. Then, in general, the distilled essence of keeping all one's samayas is to train in the view of all appearances, sound, and thoughts as the three vajras. Now, you may not be familiar with what the three vajras means, and you are not yet very knowledgeable about how to practice Vajrayana... Well, the teachings say that we cannot break vows which we don't yet understand or have the capacity to accomplish, and we all started just where you now are.


That we cannot break vows which we don't understand or have the capacity to accomplish is exactly what I have been thinking. I actually asked a visiting Lama about this, saying that if I have not experienced sounds as the union of sound and emptiness for example, how can I break that samaya? I don't remember the answer now, but it did not clear away my confusion and doubts.

Pema Rigdzin wrote:If you were to look at a customary presentation of the highest yoga tantra samayas, you'd see that there are samayas to accomplish all kinds of things we can only now aspire to. So what do we do? We make aspirational prayers, we try to create the causes to study with a competent, qualified lama, and we train in what we're able to: making sure to always maintain respect for the lamas who gave us empowerment, training to always have compassion for sentient beings and the wish to help them all attain liberation, and training our way toward equanimity toward close ones and not-so-close ones. We train in bodhisattva-like conduct, such as the 6 paramitas. Most important to understand is that the principle of samaya is not that one is supposed to become perfect the instant one receives empowerment and takes vows. It is a training. Generally speaking, you only damage the samayas in proportion to your capacity to uphold them. Also, generally speaking, there are at least 4 parts to a fully broken vow, including samaya, and one generally has to pretty deliberately break most of them. Anyway, again, what we do is train in what we know how to train in now, and make aspirations and attempts to create the causes to be able to learn further from a qualified lama in the future.

Now, you've been given the lung for a ngondro. A perfectly fine way to guard and purify your vows would be to do that daily. Most ngondros are very straightforward and would be hard to make important mistakes with. Plus, there are translations of commentaries on many of the most popular ngondro liturgies. Receiving the lung for a ngondro necessarily means a lung for the Vajrasattva practice within it, so that would be an excellent practice. It is said that reciting at least 21 of the long Vajrasattva mantra at the end of the day (with single-pointed concentration and the four powers) is powerful enough to purify whatever damages or breakages to one's samaya that day. Also, as soon as you catch yourself doing/thinking/saying something unwholesome, the sooner you confess it and do the recitation, the easier it is to purify, so you can go somewhere private and quietly, briefly recite a few Vajrasattvas as soon after as you're able, and then do a thorough Vajrasattva practice (or the whole ngondro, depending on your desire and time) before bed. So, no need to worry.

And yes, all lamas who bestow empowerment on you are vajramasters, but this does not mean you are obligated to become their disciple. You consider them as an extremely kind, noble teacher to you (because even if they just bestow the empowerment upon you and little else, the seeds for complete realization are indelibly planted in your mindstream to eventually blossom) and try to view them purely and respectfully. But eventually, when you come to feel that a particular lama (or lamas) has really been fundamental to you gaining some personal experience and knowledge of your true nature, that will be your root lama and you'll have no doubt. Usually at some time before that, through our experiences of receiving teachings and guidance from one or more lamas over some time, we come to particularly appreciate and trust a certain lama who's way of teaching and apparent knowledge and wisdom resonates with us and upon who we principally rely.


The problem for me is that it is difficult to remember the kindness of the teachers when I have not experienced any noticeable benefit, but on the contrary are struggeling with fear of negative consequences, because of not being able to keep all the vows, and because of the frustration of not knowing how to practice properly, and not knowing where to go for instructions.

I cannot force a feeling of gratitude or devotion when I don't experience benefit, but instead fear that my condition might be mucha worse than before.

I have several places read or heard that one of the benefits of taking refuge in the three jewels is that you will be able to keep all vows that you make. But then I have not been able to keep all my vows, so then I realized that I have not taken refuge in the three jewels at all, I have been fooling myself all along.
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby Inge » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:16 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:In response to this...."In order to be of any benefit to those in the hell realms, you'd likely need to be a Bodhisattva, otherwise you would spend a lot of time being tortured and having your tongue ripped out. But with attainments, you can go team up with Ksitigarbah and help him empty all hells!"

I have no attainments and am certainly no bodhisattva, but I simply don't give a flying capital F.
I and to my view others, have been running from this thing for life upon life upon life.
DEath tongues pulled out nails, disease, friends killed loved ones similiar fate.
I find no I, that can experience these things....so I have no fear of these things.

YOu say that statement is false I cannot be saying what I truly feel. Watch me....I don't give a flying capital F. REmote place wilderness spirit inhabited one misstep death visiting graves graveyards such places, daring taunting death, violence, no home for year upon year, one meal away from starvation in jail in bad and good circumstance.... that is my circumstance.

So you or any of your friends who state I must fear this thing and fear that or other circumstance....take it far away, it is not a person buying this here. No longer will I buy this thing of fear you or others are selling.

So the initial poster.....he should have no fear whatsoever. That can never ever happen. No I can be put one in such a place....only I can put myself in such a place.

HIs spiritual intent is clear and obvious. NO fault is there....not a one. He should have not the slightest fear, not a ioata of fear....he in fact should be emulated as pure faith holder and be quite happy in his faith. He in fact deserves not such fear but happiness in his faith. Which will certainly happen as effect of that thing.

He needs only to see his faith for what it is....pure, as it obviously presents. Seeing it otherwise is what is this fear. It is not so. No hell realm for him. Self contrived it can only be this hell realm so contrived.
Concept of hell only,not hell itself. Concept of samaya breakage only, not samaya breakage at all.

Not ot disregard PM's just prior post...it is a quite excellent informed post of unusual quality. To point it expresses it exactly and most closely adddresses the initial posters quary.
I only respond to counter claim and am just slightly on point. I would contend both responses have equal value but am perhaps biased... :smile:


Thank you for kind words ronnewmexico. Since I myself not know, and still experience fear, I can only hope you are right.
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:44 pm

If you believe the jakata tales are not just made up....."If in such a place I could practice kindness"

then one could indeed practice kindness. The buddha was you see in a previous life a hell beast with a companion of similiarity. His companion became ill and could not do his job anymore and was being mercilessly beaten by his owner. The buddha interceeded and stated he would pull the load for himself and his companion, he told this to the demon master.

The demon master killed him instantly for his compassion by a blow to the head. Thus began the buddhas trail to enlightenment.

You know I have no accomplishment of even the slightest sort nor education to such things but what of me? I cannot deny my experience of this circumstance of life.

Early on years and years ago..... I found all sensations quite arbitrary and decided to enter this thing with eyes wide open. NO sensation was to be disallowed nor averted. So I engaged in this thing of physical pain and found eventually over time it had no reality. It's only reality was in its identification as sensation. I then as result would go through any medical or dental procedure with no anethesia of any sort, so I may see this thing. I became known to my very small circle of acquaintances as one who knows no pain. A pain is as if I touch a wall. A doctor may ask me how intense is my pain 1 to 10. The pain is always a 6 as how intense is the sensation of touching a wall.....it simply makes no sense to me. Later on years later..... I learned of things such as pain to the spiritual path death to the spiritual path and other things of exact similiarity in my study of particular dharma.

The relevence of all this.....how could I (this here), be fearful of pain, knowing it has no reality....I cannot.
Oh well one may say....... well there is other pain...regret death of others things, of that sort, painful. Well I say study that as well it has the same nature.
So hell.....how can I fear such a place. Would I not find out pretty soon.... my eyes be blinded, my nails be pulled out, my sons daughters my loved ones killed before my very sightless eyes....nothing more could be done all is old hat not new....and what else as they say...can you show me.

So I seek not that place, but if it happened it would perhaps bore me, nothing more. Oh well another day in the pit of fire....oh well, another eye gouged out....oh well (yawn).
Pain if studied means nothing. If truly experienced it means nothing more than a day at the beach.
And consequence of my boredom....what else could I do but look for ways to be compassionate. If nothing else but to tell hell beings you don't have to fear....it is unnecessary. Nothing can happen to you here than what can happen to you here. If I got really bored I could perhaps challenge the demons that run such places to see how many times in one minute they could gouge my eyes or rip my nails and then when done state to them quite clearly.....you are as I am.

I am no bodhisttava by any means. I would never break samaya with practice however. The enlightened beings have accompanment who are not enlightened who for all intents and purposes are as shadows to the enlightened. It seems this may be how it is. As such they are dismayed, being not enlightened when bond is made with their being of worship and not followed. They get sad.

Suchly we must keep our commitments.They are as real as any of us are real. If we take this thing we must practice this thing in some form for compassion for them. Otherwise it is a noncompassionate act and hurts others The enterouage. The enlightened ones...it matters not a fig to them. WE simply do not know how complex things are and literally stuffed with beings being as we are human and not seeing to much at all.

I don't care a fig about hell. I cetainly don't want to go there, but if it happens....demons there I will irritate and challenge to see if they can finally say....see he is not me.
Thusly with that they will see their mortality, and death which will come to all born as they are born....will be no great surprise. Like a virus that cannot be killed I will spread amongst them. As aware aspect I only be, this that persents its death can never come nor be caused. Like a unwanted weed perhaps it will reappear. To prevent such they must prevent circumstances to present. Such cannot be done, it is to complex.

So that is a way of looking at this thing of hell and samaya which differs from those expressed here. Not to state it is superior in any manner. It is but equal but is my opinion. Not breaking samaya as hell is the result....makes not a bit of sense to me. For compassion it makes great sense and never can I deviate from that....that compassion aware aspect also.

Take it or leave it I don't care. I can show text which shows things such as pain on the path if so desired. So it is a buddhist practice though perhaps not a popular one. So my comment is to point...on samaya and breakage of samaya.

I have no hope for this or other thing...this is simply how things are. You must still keep samaya to my opinion. Perfect samaya...there is no such thing in human realm to my opinion. So don't expect to keep it perfectly.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:35 pm

Inge wrote:
That we cannot break vows which we don't understand or have the capacity to accomplish is exactly what I have been thinking. I actually asked a visiting Lama about this, saying that if I have not experienced sounds as the union of sound and emptiness for example, how can I break that samaya? I don't remember the answer now, but it did not clear away my confusion and doubts.


Inge, not only have I personally studied traditional commentaries on the vows, but I've received teachings from quite a few extremely highly esteemed khenpos about the following points, and their position was universal: that the karmic weight of samaya is much, much less for beginners than it is for accomplished practitioners; that one cannot break a vow one has not the understanding or accomplishment to keep; that the training is gradual and one learns how to delve more and more deeply into the samayas over time through hearing more teachings, through study, and through meditation and practice; and lastly, that Vajrasattva practice will purify any and all faults, damages, or breakages occurring each day. So there is nothing to worry about at all. Even if you're certain you've committed some kind of nonvirtue along the way, there is nothing to worry about because, as a very famous saying in Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism goes, there is but one advantage to nonvirtue, and that is that it can be purified.

Inge wrote:The problem for me is that it is difficult to remember the kindness of the teachers when I have not experienced any noticeable benefit, but on the contrary are struggeling with fear of negative consequences, because of not being able to keep all the vows, and because of the frustration of not knowing how to practice properly, and not knowing where to go for instructions.

I cannot force a feeling of gratitude or devotion when I don't experience benefit, but instead fear that my condition might be mucha worse than before.

I have several places read or heard that one of the benefits of taking refuge in the three jewels is that you will be able to keep all vows that you make. But then I have not been able to keep all my vows, so then I realized that I have not taken refuge in the three jewels at all, I have been fooling myself all along.


My heart goes out to you because I know how it feels to have all these feelings, but fortunately I was able to eventually realize that my fears and frustrations were needless. I had all kinds of scary assumptions. But through receiving teachings and also studying on my own, I was able to see that out of the samayas I could conceivably break, I would have to kind of go about breaking most of them rather systematically in order to actually break them. So the danger was immensely exaggerated by my own mind and lack of understanding. Also, it sunk in that there really are methods in this seemingly scary system which it clearly states will completely purify any negativities incurred. So there's no being worse off than before. How could that be, anyway? Before, I was doomed to repeat the cycle of birth and death in samsara having no idea about samsara's nature or that I could even do anything to escape it, much less knowing HOW to escape it. And I couldn't help others escape it either. So, the gift our lamas have given each of us is quite unfathomably special and beneficial.

As for your belief that you've been fooling yourself all along and that the teachings say that taking refuge means you will be able to keep your vows, etc... As I've stated with utter certainty, the keeping of vows is something that deepens and grows and evolves and becomes more and more thorough over time. If you've taken refuge with sincerity in your heart, then you haven't fooled yourself. And taking refuge means staying the course through all the ups and downs and doubts and not giving up or losing faith in oneself, but endeavoring to learn more and to practice through the inevitable difficulties. We have spent incalculable lifetimes generating habits completely contrary to the Dharma, so it should not come as a shock that undoing them will pose challenges. But if you stick with it, you absolutely will see benefit.
The more you learn about how to practice Vajrayana and what the samayas are and how to train in them, plus the more you dedicate yourself to a regular practice when you really know what you're doing, the more and more benefit you will begin to see. I promise.
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby Dhondrub » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:58 am

Dear Inge I hope this helps:

28. On Vajra Commitments (Samaya)
There is another issue connected with empowerments that is of great concern to many people, which is samaya. Many people wonder whether it is good to receive empowerments at all, because each empowerment seems to come with commitments (Sanskrit: samaya); and are these not a source of great danger to those who are unable to keep them? The presentation of the commitments connected with empowerments as very, very strict and presented as very dangerous for a reason. It is presented that way in order to encourage practitioners to engage in virtue. To understand why this is done, you must remember, the primary responsibility of a guru is to, one way or another, get you to do the right thing. In order to do that, they will sometimes say, “Having received this empowerment you are bound by such and such samaya, and should you transgress it you will be in great peril.” Presenting it this way is done in order to get you to do the right thing. But you should not think that having received empowerments places you in peril. Rather receiving empowerments is always a source of benefit.
Now, if someone receiving an empowerment were to utterly repudiate the entire thing and generate intense antipathy for the whole process and tradition, that is to consciously engage in a complete reversal of virtue and wrong-doing and do everything they could wrong, well obviously, under those circumstances, that person might fall to a lower rebirth. But you are not going to fall to a lower rebirth simply because you receive an empowerment and thereafter can’t fulfill all your commitments.
To understand this, it may help to consider the word for “commitment” which in Sanskrit was translated as “samaya” and was translated into Tibetan as dam tshig, which means, “words of promise” or “words of bond.” Now, the idea of “words of promise” is not that if you transgress against these rules or regulations, you will fall fast into vajra hell after your death. Rather the point is that having received empowerment and instruction, you should practice it. If you don’t actually practice, simply receiving empowerment is insufficient. As we have seen, one of the things that keeps practice going is the momentum of commitment. So, if you make a commitment when you receive empowerment to practice, the momentum of that commitment will enable you to carry it through. In other words, the commitment or promise that you make during the empowerment is actually a source of great help or assistance to you. Having received the empowerment and then not doing the practice is not going to cause you to fall to lower states; it’s simply that the promise didn’t really fulfill its function, because it didn’t produce the momentum of commitment and, therefore, practice.
So samaya should be regarded more as a useful tool than a threat. The purpose of it is to give you the means to establish a momentum of diligent practice, and this is established because you approach the empowerment with that attitude of enthusiastic commitment. If you ask, “Well do I need to keep samaya?” You do need to keep samaya, because you need to keep your promises. But you should not keep them out of fear.
--- Thrangu Rinpoche The Interval between Life and Death
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:50 pm

I am certainly just a uneducated layperson with little understanding of things but I have versed on this issue.

Many of the potential problems from samaya to my opinion are totally eliminated with the performance of the preliminary practices associated with a ceremony of empowerment.
If such are present for the particular empowerment such must be performed(of course not all have prelimaries).

This prevents, with the experiental understanding derived from such completion, the gross violations described in the above quote from occuring.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby Inge » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:58 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:I am certainly just a uneducated layperson with little understanding of things but I have versed on this issue.

Many of the potential problems from samaya to my opinion are totally eliminated with the performance of the preliminary practices associated with a ceremony of empowerment.
If such are present for the particular empowerment such must be performed(of course not all have prelimaries).

This prevents, with the experiental understanding derived from such completion, the gross violations described in the above quote from occuring.


I don't understand what you are saying here. Is preliminary practices given also during the empowerment? For instance I went to Kalachakra empowerment, does this have preliminary practices associated with it. I don't remember anything about that. Or do you mean that such preliminary practices is done before the empowerment? Or after?
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:41 pm

I state of course not all have preliminaries.Higher tantric practices have either of two conditions to my opinion...either the preliminaries are assumed to have been perfomed or they are included in some manner in the ceremony but prior perhaps to intiation of the actual ceremony.

IN the Chokyi Drolma ceremony that I was taught, to my recollection we performed the preliminaries prior to the actual teaching. Performed (not had new empowerments for them taught). ONe of those for instance is the Vajrasattava practice. To correctly perform vajrasattava practice that involves a seperate empowerment. So we all had basically those prelimaries essentially available for our use, we were all empowered already in the preliminaries.

So to engage in this correctly Chokyi Drolma one should correctly have such a prior empowerment so the teaching could be engaged firstly prior to the actual Chokyi Drolma practice.
Keep in mind these things are not written in stone. I don't personally know if another school of Kagyu may have differing requirements if they perform this ceremony and empowerment. Or even if they perform that particular empowerment. Or perhaps another school may perform that ceremony in a entirely different manner. To my observation such specifics may vary.


When I do Chokyi Drolma I for instance do the preliminaries first then the actual. As that is how I was taught. Others may do differing things or personally get confused in concept with involving Vajrasattava, Choky Drolma and KIly Kilaya and other things it may get to confusing for them. So they may do it differently. But all have the preliminaries performed in some fashion in the past.They have thusly the experiental understandings thusly ingrained and will not misunderstand the actual teaching.
So they do not misunderstand they do not violate samaya.

It is really quite simple.

But I really don't care and have no dog in this fight. I have no concern for damaged samaya. In fact Chokyi Drolma which I mention and do perform(abeit poorly) addresses damaged samaya to a degree. . Certainly I am just a uneducated layperson. If any here are lama I would suggest asking them for advice. If not consider the source. For all.

My only concern in any commitment I may not fulfill is that I may hurt others such as a enterouage of the enlightened ones who are not enlightened themselves but follow them. Spiritual seekers who are like us in some fashion(unenlightened), and may be hurt by nonperformance of such things when we committ and do not fulfill. It may hurt...yes their feelings.
So I must perform it, in some fashion though perhaps at times only a very limited fashion. As I will not intentionally cause harm or hurt another if I have a realistic option not to.

Other consider such beings nonexistant as they do not see them. I don't care what others think on these things. It is no matter to me. All they see is unreal but they find it real and loudly proclaim it so.
So I personally could care less. They are as real as I am and must not be hurt if we can avoid it.

That is the crux of samaya any samaya to me...compassion only.

Say it is not so..... highest teacher, lowest of the low, the buddha himself, minds eye... I don't give a flying capital F...I know what it is....it is compassion. All compassion and compassion only.

So maybe it is a nonbuddhist saying this thing. But I have better things to worry about than broken samaya....such worry is all about the I....and I find none. So this I will worry about other things.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby narraboth » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:18 pm

I just PM him, something probably is also OK to be discussed here in public here.
in brief:

1. It's good if one can get all iniciation he needs; if not, it's good if he got a high enough empowerment and then gets oral transmission of what he's going to chant. In this guy's case, there are not many empowerments higher than kalachakra, so I think it's totally valid and useful if he chant vajrasattva.

2. Not only vajrasattva can purify samaya breaking, actually kalachakra mantra itself can. It's clearly said in kalachakra tantra main commentary. When we say four powers confession, it's not necessarily vajrasattva, it can be other dieties. The key is if one does it properly, with whole his mind, with regret, and with strong refuge mind and faith. yes, faith. If one has faith on what buddha said about samayas, he should also have faith on what buddha said about mantra's purifying power.

3. maybe get a lama to ask about samaya, if possible. Sometimes we concern too much and maybe the text doesn't mean that.
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Re: Regarding practice for purification of damaged samaya

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:55 am

Inge wrote:
ronnewmexico wrote:I am certainly just a uneducated layperson with little understanding of things but I have versed on this issue.

Many of the potential problems from samaya to my opinion are totally eliminated with the performance of the preliminary practices associated with a ceremony of empowerment.
If such are present for the particular empowerment such must be performed(of course not all have prelimaries).

This prevents, with the experiental understanding derived from such completion, the gross violations described in the above quote from occuring.


I don't understand what you are saying here. Is preliminary practices given also during the empowerment? For instance I went to Kalachakra empowerment, does this have preliminary practices associated with it. I don't remember anything about that. Or do you mean that such preliminary practices is done before the empowerment? Or after?


I'm not sure what preliminaries Ron is talking about that "eliminate problems from samaya" or what he means by that, because receiving samayas means they have to be guarded from that point on and purified if broken. Nothing else short of attaining realization will making keeping samayas an automatic thing.

In any case, every highest yoga tantra empowerment has preliminary, main, and concluding sections; the main preliminaries include drinking the purificatory blessed vase water before entering the temple or venue, taking refuge and bodhisattva vows, requesting the empowerment by offering the mandala, and promising to keep the samayas once they're received. The main part is the descent of blessings, the visualizations, receiving the empowerment substances, and obtaining the samayas and again promising to keep them. The concluding part is the tsog (very often done very briefly by the lama on behalf of the recipients) and dedicating the merit. I may have left something out, but these are the main parts. After the empowerment, it is one's responsibility to learn what the samayas are and how they're to be kept, and one has to try to keep them according to one's ability. A beginner will keep them in a very different way from someone more advanced, and both the ability to break many of them and the karmic weight of breaking them is much greater for an advanced practitioner than a beginner.

But purification is a simple matter: the teachings say that correctly performing the very short and easy-to-do Vajrasattva practice or six-session guru yoga or other tantric purificatory practice each day will take care of any shortcomings or breakages of any kind.

Also, Narraboth has made some excellent points above.
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