Mahamudra and tantra

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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby heart » Wed May 15, 2013 6:23 pm

In the bone yard wrote:Dharma friends,
I would like to see these references where Mahamudra is supposed to be highest tantra.
Would you gentlemen please direct me?


http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Mahamudra

You can see that Jamgon Kongtrul the great equalize Mahamurda with Dzogchen Semde. But perhaps this is what you mean with "lower tantra" :smile: you only practice Yangti?

In the Nyingma terma tradition Mahamudra is sometimes related to the completion stage of Mahayoga or Anuyoga but even so Mahayoga and Anuyoga is not lower Tantra.

/magnus
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 15, 2013 8:48 pm

Personally, from my extraordinarily limited experience, it seems to me that Dzogchen is just Tibetan style Mahamudra and Mahamudra is just Indian style Dzogchen.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby conebeckham » Wed May 15, 2013 10:19 pm

A bit off topic, but from my view, Dzogchen does have some techniques and instructions which are quite profound, when they are encountered by the right kind of individual, and those techniques and instructions are unique, not found in Mahamudra lineage transmissions. But Dzogchen is another multivalent term...it can also mean the "fruitional state"--the Natural State, the State of Enlightenment. In this sense, Dzogchen and Mahamudra are quite similar. So, from one POV, different paths, different practices.....but same result, same ultimate end.
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby Jinzang » Wed May 15, 2013 11:27 pm

Mahamudra is more or less the same as the semde presentation of trekcho. Not my opinion, Khenpho Karthar Rinpoche in his commentary on Karma Chagme's Mountain Dharma. I can say from my experience there's very little difference between instruction on how to practice mahamudra and trekcho.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby In the bone yard » Wed May 15, 2013 11:50 pm

conebeckham wrote:Bone yard-

You'll find the term "mahamudra" in the Highest Yoga tantras, especially the Mother and Nondual subclasses.

You'll also find it in the dohas of the Mahasiddhas. You should check out the Third Karmapa's "Aspiration prayer of Mahamudra," along with any commentary you can find on the text--there are a variety of books with this material published. This should quickly clarify any misconceptions you may have about Mahamudra being a "lower" teaching.


Should a term used in highest yoga tantra make it highest tantra?
Whether a teaching is lower or higher tantra it is still tantra.
Tantra is the highest teaching there is (Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana), and sometimes tantra is called tantra regardless of what class it is.

Vidyadhara Chogyam Trungpa explained the difference between Mahamudra and highest yoga tantra in detail in a seminar based on his own experience and then took questions from students after the teaching. I don't know how anyone can argue with that!
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby Jinzang » Thu May 16, 2013 12:27 am

Whether mahamudra is tantra or not, it is the essence of the vajrayana. As Lama Phurbhu Tashi once said, "If you understand mahamudra, all of Tibetan Buddhism makes sense. If you don't, none of it makes sens."
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby heart » Thu May 16, 2013 5:44 am

In the bone yard wrote:
Vidyadhara Chogyam Trungpa explained the difference between Mahamudra and highest yoga tantra in detail in a seminar based on his own experience and then took questions from students after the teaching. I don't know how anyone can argue with that!


You haven't been able to prove you point, it is simple as that. Just pick up your copy of the book and give us some quotes proving your point. For example, what kind of lower Tantra is Mahamudra supposed to be?

/magnus
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby conebeckham » Thu May 16, 2013 3:49 pm

In the bone yard wrote:
Vidyadhara Chogyam Trungpa explained the difference between Mahamudra and highest yoga tantra in detail in a seminar based on his own experience and then took questions from students after the teaching. I don't know how anyone can argue with that!


So you say, but you provide no details.

Quite frankly. I believe you are misunderstanding what Trungpa said, based on my own training, and others are agreeing with me. This discussion will go nowhere until you can offer some detailed citations to support your assertion.
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby Stewart » Thu May 16, 2013 5:17 pm

Apologies for chiming in late here, but I have just noticed this thread.

ITBY, I also believe that you have misunderstood CTR. I have never heard Mahamudra described in these terms, and like Cone and Magnus, I have received numerous Mahamudra instructions over the years from various teachers, mainly Tai Situ Rinpoche and Mingyur Rinpoche.

Please check your source and clarify, As this type of misunderstanding cn cause obstacles for future progress, for oneself and others.
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby anjali » Thu May 16, 2013 11:50 pm

Decided to do a quick google search on "Trungpa lower tantra mahamudra" and got this hit: http://books.google.com/books?id=5Bdprb ... CEYQ6AEwAw.

The glossary definition of Mahamudra: "mahamudra/maha ati (Skt). Mahamudra refers to lower tantra and maha ati to higher tantra. These two approaches to understanding the nature of the mind are presented at times sequentially and at other times complementary."

Don't know if this is more thoroughly elaborated on somewhere in the Collected Works.

[edit] A little continued research found this, http://books.google.com/books?id=8TVESq ... kQ6AEwBjgK, from Lion's Roar:
Maha means "great", and mudra means "symbol." So mahamudra means "great symbol." This is the basic core, or backbone, of all the [lower] tantric yoga practices. Kriya yoga yana, upa yoga yana, and yoga yana all involve practices that relate with the basic origin, shi in Tibetan, which also means "background." So they are yogas of the basic origin or yogas of the background, or yogas of basic nature. There is a difference between the higher yogas that we haven't discussed yet and these lower yogas. which work with the basic ground. The three yoga yanas of lower tantra still have some relationship with the mahayana practices, which also work with the basic potential. So there are a lot of references to relating with the origin, relating with the potential. ...
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby heart » Fri May 17, 2013 5:26 am

Well done anjali, but it still makes no sense even from a Nyingma perspective which it seems to be since he is talking about three higher tantras.

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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby bryandavis » Fri May 17, 2013 10:49 am

Greetings all,

my two cents (or more).

I think when looking at this from a nyingma structure, from what i understand, have heard (will surely try to post the sources as soon as i can, im in an internet shop in india right now away from any hardcopy of anything) and like many have said already, I think mahamudra has so many uses, this is obvious. but if it is being placed as a "lower" anything then I have heard, and read in regards to the structure of the 9 yana systems the "mahamudra" refers to our realization "sealing" our body, speech and mind with the mandala of the yidam. So when you use the definition of "sealing" then there is still the seal and who is sealing, still a slight duality. This is one view i have recently heard (in india, in bir, during dam ngak dzo teachings). But using "mahamudra" in this sense doesnt equate to the use of term when using it in its own context outside of the nine yana system.

for example: (tilopas ganges mahamudra, translated by HH Chetsang Rinpoche.

24 The luminosity, mahamudra, will not be seen by the exponents of tantra (tantric teachings) and prajanaparamita (perfection of wisdom), or the teachings of the vinaya pitaka (basket of teachings on moral ethics) and the like, or even through the respective scriptures and tenet systems.

25 Without mental fabrications and free of longing wishes, [thoughts] are self-arising and self-subsiding like the waves in water. When longing wishes arise, luminosity is obscured and not seen.

I think that makes it really clear from its own system, in this pith instruction that "mahamudra" falls out of even the catagory of "tantric" siddhi, or realization.

Im sure in dzogchen there is nothing to be sealed by any fabricatoin, or need to transform anything no? also in this pith mahamudra there is nothing to seal, nothing to transform. no antidotes.

another example in the CNNR yantra yoga book there is a description of why in his system of trulkhor one does not see oneself as a deity, but remains in an open clear state (not using exact words, i dont have the book next to me.) as opposed to say six yogas where you view yourself as Varahi/Vajrayogini. One is "sealed" one is a tantric based approach on is not.

As well, HE Garchen Rinpoche has sayed in his prith instruction on tummo (vajra recitation) that in the practice of "mahamurda" one does not visualize oneself as a deity.

I feel the pith/oral instructions/essence mahamudra, the mudra or chak in tibetan is less "seal" in the sense of binding or bonding with a view/yidam/pure vision etc.....but more chak or seal as in a stamp of authenticity. the Great Authenticity.

also:
this is saying if you dont rest in the way things are then.....(from same ganges mahamudra text)

"9 If those of lesser intelligence cannot dwell in the truth, focus on the breath and maintain awareness with earnestness. By the myriad ways of gazing and focusing the mind, discipline your awareness until it rests naturally."

so if you cant remain in rigpa or thamalgyishepa or what ever you want to call the natural state then practice tsa lung to enhance and capture this state.

ok. thanks for letting me share. look forward to hearing more.

p.s. I mainly practice in Drikung Kagyu just to put it out there.

all the best
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby In the bone yard » Fri May 17, 2013 7:50 pm

You don't believe anyway, what difference could it make? :smile:

Doesn't Johhny Dangerously have the book?
I think it would come across more honestly coming from him.
I could write anything!

Let's say I am wrong or that I'm correct in the reference. You pick.
Now, how does that help you? Does it increase your meditation?
If one holds onto a believe so strongly and then finds out he was wrong all this time how does that change his realization?
Does he or she experience a heavy loss in meditations?

What if I'm wrong, does that increase your meditations? If so, how?
We argue like we are Hinayana but we are discussing Mahamudra! :jumping:
The studying is not doing any good. :(

Personally I don't care either way because it won't get me closer to the goal!
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 17, 2013 7:56 pm

In the bone yard wrote:Personally I don't care either way because it won't get me closer to the goal!
If you don't care either way then why make an issue of it? :shrug:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby In the bone yard » Fri May 17, 2013 9:11 pm

double post!
Last edited by In the bone yard on Fri May 17, 2013 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby In the bone yard » Fri May 17, 2013 9:19 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
In the bone yard wrote:Personally I don't care either way because it won't get me closer to the goal!
If you don't care either way then why make an issue of it? :shrug:


Bingo!
It doesn't matter if Mahamudra is lower tantra or not.
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby heart » Fri May 17, 2013 9:20 pm

In the bone yard wrote:Bingo!
It doesn't matter if Mahamudra is lower tantra or not.


Well, thank you for nothing then.

/magnus
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby In the bone yard » Fri May 17, 2013 9:22 pm

I am sorry heart, if I thought it would help I'd copy some references. :smile:
I'm hoping Johnny will come through for us.
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby heart » Fri May 17, 2013 10:06 pm

In the bone yard wrote:I am sorry heart, if I thought it would help I'd copy some references. :smile:
I'm hoping Johnny will come through for us.


It is quite obvious that CTR is discussing Mahamudra in the context of the nine yanas of the Nyingma tradition from the quotes already provided.
According to the Kagyu tradition there are three kinds of Mahamudra, sutra Mahamudra, tantra Mahamudra and essence Mahamudra. The Sakya tradition feel there is only tantra Mahamudra. Tantra Mahamudra belong to the annutaratantra yoga and is defined as the path of liberation while the six yogas are considered the path of means. This is the same in both the Sakya and Kagyu traditions if I have understood correctly. Essence Mahamudra is by masters such as the first Jamgon Kongtrul been equalized with Dzogchen Semde.

/magnus
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri May 17, 2013 10:55 pm

I only have the kindle version, on an old style Kindle lol. I did a search though and didn't find anything like that, I will however look again when I have a chance.
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