Question on a line from a Tibetan passage regarding Tantra

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Re: Question on a line from a Tibetan passage regarding Tant

Postby Konchog1 » Thu May 16, 2013 6:16 pm

Astus wrote:On the other hand there is Saraha:

"Obsessed with the joys of sexual embrace
The fool believes he knows ultimate truth;
He is like someone who stands at his door
And, flirting, talks about sex."
I don't understand his metaphor...
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: Question on a line from a Tibetan passage regarding Tant

Postby Astus » Thu May 16, 2013 8:16 pm

Konchog1 wrote:I don't understand his metaphor...


Sexual embrace is as close to the ultimate truth as talking about sex to actually doing it.

The same passage in Guenther's translation:

"For the delights of kissing the deluded crave
Declaring it to be the ultimately real--
Like a man who leaves his house and standing at the door
Asks a woman for reports of sensual delights."


In the Dohakosha he writes:

"For those unaware of the nature of everything,
Great bliss is attained in sexual union;
As if thirst-ridden, chasing after water in mirage,
They die from thirst, and do they ever drink the sky-water?
Whoever frolics in this bliss,
Living between vajra and lotus,
What for? This has no capacity for truth,
So {where} in the three worlds will you be complete?"

(Dreaming the Great Brahmin, p. 166)
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Question on a line from a Tibetan passage regarding Tant

Postby Konchog1 » Fri May 17, 2013 5:03 am

Astus wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:I don't understand his metaphor...


Sexual embrace is as close to the ultimate truth as talking about sex to actually doing it.

The same passage in Guenther's translation:

"For the delights of kissing the deluded crave
Declaring it to be the ultimately real--
Like a man who leaves his house and standing at the door
Asks a woman for reports of sensual delights."


In the Dohakosha he writes:

"For those unaware of the nature of everything,
Great bliss is attained in sexual union;
As if thirst-ridden, chasing after water in mirage,
They die from thirst, and do they ever drink the sky-water?
Whoever frolics in this bliss,
Living between vajra and lotus,
What for? This has no capacity for truth,
So {where} in the three worlds will you be complete?"

(Dreaming the Great Brahmin, p. 166)
Is one of the founders of Tantra criticizing Consort practice? :shock: If so, why is this the first time that I've heard of this??
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: Question on a line from a Tibetan passage regarding Tant

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri May 17, 2013 6:50 am

Konchog1 wrote:Is one of the founders of Tantra criticizing Consort practice? :shock: If so, why is this the first time that I've heard of this??


Not per-sé:

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=10921&start=40#p139358
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Re: Question on a line from a Tibetan passage regarding Tant

Postby sbl » Sat May 18, 2013 2:28 am

conebeckham wrote:"Atone" is somewhat like "repentence."

From a Dzogchen POV, this is a profound statement about the nature of atonement, confession, repentence. And the nature of what is being repented...as well as the repenter. Nothing more can really be said about it.........if you understand the "dimensionless yoni."



What is the nature of repentance or confession in Dzogchen? What is its relation to karma?
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Re: Question on a line from a Tibetan passage regarding Tant

Postby In the bone yard » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:49 pm

Konchog1 wrote:
Astus wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:I don't understand his metaphor...


Sexual embrace is as close to the ultimate truth as talking about sex to actually doing it.

The same passage in Guenther's translation:

"For the delights of kissing the deluded crave
Declaring it to be the ultimately real--
Like a man who leaves his house and standing at the door
Asks a woman for reports of sensual delights."


In the Dohakosha he writes:

"For those unaware of the nature of everything,
Great bliss is attained in sexual union;
As if thirst-ridden, chasing after water in mirage,
They die from thirst, and do they ever drink the sky-water?
Whoever frolics in this bliss,
Living between vajra and lotus,
What for? This has no capacity for truth,
So {where} in the three worlds will you be complete?"

(Dreaming the Great Brahmin, p. 166)
Is one of the founders of Tantra criticizing Consort practice? :shock: If so, why is this the first time that I've heard of this??



There's a misinterpretation of bliss and great bliss. He's not talking about great bliss from nadi, prana and bindu point of view.
He is talking about worldly sex where the other person's energy is used for their own satisfaction.

Long ago a co-worker thought it was silly that I'd taken a vow of celebacy. He was very familar with my buddhist practice because he would find my books.
I remember he told me once that he would achieved nirvana when he gets oral sex from his girlfriend. I remember laughing when he said this because I remember the look on his face afterward.

This is the type of sex the master is talking about, wordly sex.
It is no different than talking about it from the point of view of mind.
If it is thought of in the mind, then it is as if doing the actual deed because the karma has been set in motion.

As I said before earlier, there is no release of seed in real, sincere practice.
In wordly sex there is loss of seed, as this is the goal of the act (to take advantage of the other's energy).
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Re: Question on a line from a Tibetan passage regarding Tant

Postby wisdom » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:49 am

sbl wrote:
conebeckham wrote:"Atone" is somewhat like "repentence."

From a Dzogchen POV, this is a profound statement about the nature of atonement, confession, repentence. And the nature of what is being repented...as well as the repenter. Nothing more can really be said about it.........if you understand the "dimensionless yoni."



What is the nature of repentance or confession in Dzogchen? What is its relation to karma?


Upon recognizing that you have fallen into delusion, you simply return to abiding in Rigpa and remain in that for as long as possible. On some level non-abiding, or non-recognition is a "sin" in Dzogchen, confession is recognizing that this has happened, and repentance is returning to your natural state. This is done without any judgement of good or bad, or any thought that you have done anything wrong or right. The reason is because ultimately its recognized that all thoughts are the display of Dharmakaya, and because of this there is nothing to be abandoned or accepted since every thought shares the same ultimate nature. In general Dzogchen Samayas do not implement any kind of antidote because according to the Dzogchen view there is no antidote to be applied beyond abiding in our true nature, which is like a universal cure/antidote for every disease.

In terms of the "dimensionless yoni", the yoni is equivalent to space. What is being said is that atonement is done through abiding in the spaciousness of the Dharmakaya free of conceptual elaboration.
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Re: Question on a line from a Tibetan passage regarding Tant

Postby asunthatneversets » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:49 pm

wisdom wrote:On some level non-abiding, or non-recognition is a "sin" in Dzogchen, confession is recognizing that this has happened, and repentance is returning to your natural state.


Read this somewhere and can't confirm whether it's true or not, but the root meaning of the word 'sin' is actually 'to forget'... to err or become distracted, interesting correlation if that is true!

From wikipedia:
"The word [sin] derives from “Old English syn(n), for original *sunjō,... The stem may be related to that of Latin sons, sont-is guilty. In Old English there are examples of the original general sense, ‘offence, wrong-doing, misdeed'”. The Biblical terms that have been translated from Greek and Hebrew literally refer to missing a target, i.e. error."
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Re: Question on a line from a Tibetan passage regarding Tant

Postby Thunna Yew » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:16 am

Sin in English derives from the Latin "Sine" as translation of "Without" as opposed to "Within" (as we know it from the Christian Bible). It is translated from the Greek Hamartia, an archery term which literally means "missing the target".
I understand though, Sine refers to" not having "or" to be lacking", as Intra and Extra also signify Inner and Outer. Maybe there was a translation difficulty.
But, the Greek sense, to miss, or to lose ones aim, goal, vision,state, view etc, sums it up nicely for me.
Sadly the word retains so many negative connotations post bible translation.
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