It's a kind of history which is good to observe from a considerable distanceKonchog1 wrote: Russian history is certainly some of the more interesting of national histories. All the leaders are amazingly charismatic or otherwise notable, from St. Olga to Putin.
Monarchy vs Democracy
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
Please consider donating to help find a cure for Degenerative Vitreous Syndrome:
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Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
Konchog1 wrote:Democracies are peaceful are they?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
Talking about strawmen, the whole notion of the Cakravartin is lost at this point due to their construction. If you think the issue is their lack, or that there are better ideologies which your brain can cook up and which can better affect subversion to that which we are averse to, then I believe the whole point of the Cakravartin has been lost. If you truly understand what it means, you will not be worrying about their lack.PadmaVonSamba wrote:Your opinion on this topic is not necessary anyway,Karma Dorje wrote:Under a Dharma king or queen, my opinion on this topic is not necessary.PadmaVonSamba wrote: Under a monarchy, your opinion on this topic doesn't count.
but at least in a democracy
your opinion matters.
.
.
.
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
George Bush and others had a fine education. However most politicans are not educated even with the diploma nor do many have integrity.Karma Dorje wrote: I am much more comfortable with educated people,
And you have a Dharma Monarch that you can point to, do you?or in this case realized people, deciding for the community who best exemplifies the lineage.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
That's unfair - Cromwell was quite a while ago .... what in the world have the British done since?gregkavarnos wrote:And I am sure that the Irish would prefer not to have a (violently) imposed foreign monarchy.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
- PadmaVonSamba
- Posts: 9459
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
GREAT NEWS!!!
As of today, anybody who wants a monarchy is in luck. I am available to fill the position of Supreme Monarch. That's right, if you want a king, then here I am. To activate this offer immediately, all you have to do is to believe that I am your king. That's all there is to it! And, for a limited time only, during this introductory period, no taxes will be collected although gifts of tribute symbolizing recognition and/or servitude will be accepted. To become a subject of this realm, simply reply with a statement proclaiming my glory. Remember, all replies must begin with, "Your Royal Highness..." or they will be rejected. Ten lucky applicants will be appointed to the nobility. Thank you, thank you all. You are loyal and true, and as your new king I shall do everything in my power to rule over you fairly or unfairly, at my discretion.
Refreshments will now be served in the dungeon.
.
.
.
As of today, anybody who wants a monarchy is in luck. I am available to fill the position of Supreme Monarch. That's right, if you want a king, then here I am. To activate this offer immediately, all you have to do is to believe that I am your king. That's all there is to it! And, for a limited time only, during this introductory period, no taxes will be collected although gifts of tribute symbolizing recognition and/or servitude will be accepted. To become a subject of this realm, simply reply with a statement proclaiming my glory. Remember, all replies must begin with, "Your Royal Highness..." or they will be rejected. Ten lucky applicants will be appointed to the nobility. Thank you, thank you all. You are loyal and true, and as your new king I shall do everything in my power to rule over you fairly or unfairly, at my discretion.
Refreshments will now be served in the dungeon.
.
.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
Your Royal Highness and the various Lords and Ladies of the court,
Actually Polybius cites this method as one of several possible ways a monarchy starts. The other way is an informal election.
The safeguard with the first method is that if the new king is incompetent or unpopular, he's already taught the way to overthrow him.
Actually Polybius cites this method as one of several possible ways a monarchy starts. The other way is an informal election.
The safeguard with the first method is that if the new king is incompetent or unpopular, he's already taught the way to overthrow him.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
What are you talking about Kirt? Has the whole "Northern Ireland" deal just completely bypassed your reality?kirtu wrote:That's unfair - Cromwell was quite a while ago .... what in the world have the British done since?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
Isn't this awfully simplistic thinking? There are thousands of people in every region who both support and oppose whatever government is in place, and Northern Ireland is an exceptionally good example of this. The only truth for all governments, villages, towns, cities, countries and empires is that they are marked by the three characteristics: impermanence, suffering, and not-self.What are you talking about Kirt? Has the whole "Northern Ireland" deal just completely bypassed your reality?
What really is the Buddhist position here? To support a system of government? To oppose it? Both? Neither? Or perhaps, the question simply does not apply.
- treehuggingoctopus
- Posts: 2507
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
- Location: EU
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
Well, you could ask Kenyans, for one:kirtu wrote:That's unfair - Cromwell was quite a while ago .... what in the world have the British done since?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... atrocities
(You meant 'what in the world have the British done to the Irish since', didn't you?)
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.
Edmond Jabès
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.
Edmond Jabès
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
What is the use of pointing so many fingers?
Haven't you lived an uncountable number of lives prior to this one? Haven't you therefore likely engaged in the same kinds of war crimes countless times?
And aren't all those who engage in such crimes also our mothers in past lives?
Crime occurs constantly, and will never stop until all beings are liberated - it's just the nature of Samsara. Thus, being concerned with such matters leads only to discord and cannot be resolved, it is not right speech.
Haven't you lived an uncountable number of lives prior to this one? Haven't you therefore likely engaged in the same kinds of war crimes countless times?
And aren't all those who engage in such crimes also our mothers in past lives?
Crime occurs constantly, and will never stop until all beings are liberated - it's just the nature of Samsara. Thus, being concerned with such matters leads only to discord and cannot be resolved, it is not right speech.
Whereas some ascetics and Brahmins remain addicted to such unedifying conversation* as about kings, robbers, ministers, armies, dangers, wars, food, drink, clothes, beds, garlands, perfumes, relatives, carriages, villages, towns and cities, countries, women, heroes, street- and well- gossip, talk of the departed, desultory chat, speculations about land and sea, talk about being and non-being, the ascetic Gotama refrains from such conversation.
DN i.7-8
*Tiracchana-katha: lit. 'animal-talk'. As animals walk parallel to the earth, so this kind of talk does not lead upward.
Translation by Walshe
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
'Anarchism is founded on the observation that since few men are wise enough to rule themselves, even fewer are wise enough to rule others.' (Edward Abbey)
'To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality.'
(Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
'The first man who, having fenced off a plot of land, thought of saying, ‘This is mine’ and found people simple enough to believe him was the real founder of civil society. How many crimes, wars, murders, how many miseries and horrors might the human race had been spared by the one who, upon pulling up the stakes or filling in the ditch, had shouted to his fellow men: ‘Beware of listening to this impostor; you are lost if you forget the fruits of the earth belong to all and that the earth belongs to no one.'' (Rousseau)
'To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality.'
(Pierre-Joseph Proudhon)
'The first man who, having fenced off a plot of land, thought of saying, ‘This is mine’ and found people simple enough to believe him was the real founder of civil society. How many crimes, wars, murders, how many miseries and horrors might the human race had been spared by the one who, upon pulling up the stakes or filling in the ditch, had shouted to his fellow men: ‘Beware of listening to this impostor; you are lost if you forget the fruits of the earth belong to all and that the earth belongs to no one.'' (Rousseau)
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
Meanwhile back in the real, non platonic, non idealistic world....
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
Off topic posts removed.
Please leave aside the personal remarks and keep the thread on topic.
Thank you.
Please leave aside the personal remarks and keep the thread on topic.
Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
Simplisitc or simple? Kirt commented regarding Cromwell and I brought him up to date.Ben Yuan wrote:Isn't this awfully simplistic thinking? There are thousands of people in every region who both support and oppose whatever government is in place, and Northern Ireland is an exceptionally good example of this. The only truth for all governments, villages, towns, cities, countries and empires is that they are marked by the three characteristics: impermanence, suffering, and not-self.What are you talking about Kirt? Has the whole "Northern Ireland" deal just completely bypassed your reality?
What really is the Buddhist position here? To support a system of government? To oppose it? Both? Neither? Or perhaps, the question simply does not apply.
What would be the Buddhist position on violently imposed monarchies? I guess that depends on which Buddhist you ask. This Buddhist (me) says that violent imposed political rule is a no-no. I can find relevant quotes to back my position. Another will say... ad nauseum.
While it is true that samsara cannot be perfect, it is also true that (albeit temporarily) it can be (politically/socially/economically) organised a hell of a lot better than what it is right now. Now, all I have to do is to convince those that greedily cling to wealth and power to share some of it (not all) with those (the overwhelming, absolute, majority of people in the world) that do not.
Now what does Buddhism have to say about clinging and attachment to impermanent phenomena?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
Maybe, when people face the end of civilization, they will finally invent a good solution. Sadly, it will probably be to late. Humans are really miserable, as social species.
Say what you think about me here.
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
1. The Buddha taught individuals how to obtain happiness in this life, the next life, and how to obtain cessation. In the present moment, individuals are instructed to act with wholesome intention. Obviously this means unwholesome actions in the present are not conducive to a good destination, but I think that treating "states" as actual objects, rather than ideas, and not focusing on the individuals who make decisions and how they can act wholesomely or unwholesomely is somewhat unskillful. But the question of historical unwholesome actions thereof seems irrelevant to me in assessing how one can choose to act in the present (so long as the action is not still taking place). This approach seems to make sense to me, but I would be interested to hear how you would approach it differently.gregkavarnos wrote:Simplisitc or simple? Kirt commented regarding Cromwell and I brought him up to date.
[1.] What would be the Buddhist position on violently imposed monarchies? I guess that depends on which Buddhist you ask. This Buddhist (me) says that violent imposed political rule is a no-no. I can find relevant quotes to back my position. Another will say... ad nauseum.
[2.] While it is true that samsara cannot be perfect, it is also true that (albeit temporarily) it can be (politically/socially/economically) organised a hell of a lot better than what it is right now. Now, all I have to do is to convince those that greedily cling to wealth and power to share some of it (not all) with those (the overwhelming, absolute, majority of people in the world) that do not.
Now what does Buddhism have to say about clinging and attachment to impermanent phenomena?
2.A lot of people have stuff and we don't understand why. A lot of people do not and we don't understand why. We cannot comprehend fully the law of karma and can control human lives such that people get just what they deserve - this occurs by itself. We can encourage people to give, and that is the Buddhist approach, but to actively reorganise the world would be offensive to the security of property and order of society. Moreover, it would deprive those who are wealthy of that opportunity to generate good karma. As far as I can discern, when the Buddha instructs kings to provide wealth and jobs such that people are no longer poor, he is talking about the wealth of those kings, not the wealth which a modern government takes forcefully and redistributes. As for clinging to wealth, this seems like a bit of a mischaracterisation of how the wealthy are more likely to run their financial affairs. Certainly being stingy is bad for the poor and doesn't keep capital flowing in the market, but it also has automatic bad practical karmic repercussions for the wealthy owner of the capital, since it isn't growing if they're just "clinging" to it as you say, but rather would naturally diminish. "Further, householder, with the wealth thus gained the noble disciple makes provisions against the losses that might arise on account of fire and floods, kings and bandits and unloved heirs; he makes himself secure against them. This is the second case of wealth gone to good use." (AN 4:61; II 65-68) I am interested in what quotes you have which would give such wealth to kings, and proclaim it to be good use for kings to distribute it rather than the laws of nature, economics and karma (all causes and conditions and naturally non-forceful).
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
I have no ides how this relates to what I said.Ben Yuan wrote:1. The Buddha taught individuals how to obtain happiness in this life, the next life, and how to obtain cessation. In the present moment, individuals are instructed to act with wholesome intention. Obviously this means unwholesome actions in the present are not conducive to a good destination, but I think that treating "states" as actual objects, rather than ideas, and not focusing on the individuals who make decisions and how they can act wholesomely or unwholesomely is somewhat unskillful. But the question of historical unwholesome actions thereof seems irrelevant to me in assessing how one can choose to act in the present (so long as the action is not still taking place). This approach seems to make sense to me, but I would be interested to hear how you would approach it differently.
A "Buddhist" excuse for not redistributing wealth. Basically a "Buddhist" excuse for people to act based on greed, avarice, and desire. Actually sounds more like a Brahmanic account, like the excuses used to justify the existence of the caste system.2.A lot of people have stuff and we don't understand why. A lot of people do not and we don't understand why. We cannot comprehend fully the law of karma and can control human lives such that people get just what they deserve - this occurs by itself. We can encourage people to give, and that is the Buddhist approach, but to actively reorganise the world would be offensive to the security of property and order of society. Moreover, it would deprive those who are wealthy of that opportunity to generate good karma. As far as I can discern, when the Buddha instructs kings to provide wealth and jobs such that people are no longer poor, he is talking about the wealth of those kings, not the wealth which a modern government takes forcefully and redistributes. As for clinging to wealth, this seems like a bit of a mischaracterisation of how the wealthy are more likely to run their financial affairs. Certainly being stingy is bad for the poor and doesn't keep capital flowing in the market, but it also has automatic bad practical karmic repercussions for the wealthy owner of the capital, since it isn't growing if they're just "clinging" to it as you say, but rather would naturally diminish. "Further, householder, with the wealth thus gained the noble disciple makes provisions against the losses that might arise on account of fire and floods, kings and bandits and unloved heirs; he makes himself secure against them. This is the second case of wealth gone to good use." (AN 4:61; II 65-68) I am interested in what quotes you have which would give such wealth to kings, and proclaim it to be good use for kings to distribute it rather than the laws of nature, economics and karma (all causes and conditions and naturally non-forceful).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
- Nilasarasvati
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 3:08 am
- Location: Trāyastriṃśa. Just kidding. What a cool sanksrit word, huh?
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
Whoah.
Last edited by Nilasarasvati on Sat May 25, 2013 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Nilasarasvati
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 3:08 am
- Location: Trāyastriṃśa. Just kidding. What a cool sanksrit word, huh?
Re: Monarchy vs Democracy
Nilasarasvati wrote:I am stunned by so much of this thread; I would have thought it was totally impossible for a Buddhist (who knows a little history) to believe monarchies and feudal systems of governance could be anything but patriarchal warlordism birthed, maintained, and characterized by violence, oppression, and ethnic genocide. Always. Every time. Every example in history. You can tout your "great man" theories and talk about "enlightened" rulers...but I'm just baffled. Are we in the Victorian era?
Most appalling is the ignorance that systems aren't totally characterized by genocide. By Racism with a capital R.
As people who categorically believe that human potential is limited only to omniscience and perfection, why would you settle for anything less than a perfect form of governance?
Which cannot possibly be representative democracy, either; its a hellhole of corruption, violence and mass exploitation.
In my arrogant opinion, that perfect form of governance isn't that hard to Imagine.
"It's easy if you try."
(It is ironically really Daoist. )
Read Ursula K. LeGuin for details.