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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 11:04 pm 
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http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... ingle.html

This article is from the Theravada point of view, but Mahayana is built on that. Would Mahayana Buddhists also agree that marriage is the result of bad karma? Does marriage really cause more suffering than other activities?


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 2:35 am 
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Greetings Luke,

Luke wrote:
This article is from the Theravada point of view


It's worth point out though that this isn't necessarily the Theravada point of view... just Ajaan Fuang's.

Metta,
Retro. :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 2:42 am 
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Neither is it the Mahayana view.....mostly cultural and over-simplified versions of karma if some said yes to it...


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 12:20 pm 
retrofuturist wrote:
It's worth point out though that this isn't necessarily the Theravada point of view... just Ajaan Fuang's.

Dear Sir Futurist

The Eternal Spirit has dharma to satisify householders who delight in and are sustained by sensuality, such as the Samajivina Sutta.

Our exemplars are eternality sustained by this Dharma.

Image

However, regarding the sons of the Tathagata, they are 'cobras'. Please be careful.

Quote:
"Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.

"And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.

"And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver 2 are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search.

"And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search.

Ariyapariyesana Sutta


Quote:
But when there is the union of the mother and father, and it is the mother’s season, and the gandhabba is present, through the union of these three things the conception of an embryo in a womb takes place.

The mother then carries the embryo in her womb for nine or ten months with much anxiety, as a
heavy burden. Then, at the end of nine or ten months, the mother gives birth with much anxiety, as a
heavy burden. Then, when the child is born, she nourishes it with her own blood; for the mother’s
breast-milk is called blood in the Noble One’s (ariya) training.

Mahàtanhàsankhaya Sutta


Quote:
Then King Yama presses and questions and cross-questions him about the first divine messenger: 'Good man, did you not see the first divine messenger to appear in the world?' He says: "I did not venerable sir.' Then King Yama says: 'Good man, have you never seen in the world a young tender infant lying prone, fouled in his excrement and urine?' He says: "I have, venerable sir".

Devaduta Sutta


Quote:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the young wife of a certain wanderer was pregnant and on the verge of delivery. So she said to the wanderer, "Go get some oil for my delivery."

When this was said, the wanderer said to her, "But where can I get any oil?"

A second time, she said to him, "Go get some oil for my delivery."

A second time, he said to her, "But where can I get any oil?"

A third time, she said to him, "Go get some oil for my delivery."

Now at that time at the storehouse of King Pasenadi Kosala they were giving priests and contemplatives as much oil or ghee as they needed to drink, but not to take away. So the thought occurred to the wanderer, "At present at the storehouse of King Pasenadi Kosala they are giving priests and contemplatives as much oil or ghee as they need to drink, but not to take away. Suppose, having gone there, I were to drink as much oil as I need and, on returning home, were to vomit it up to use at the delivery?"

So, having gone to the storehouse of King Pasenadi Kosala, he drink as much oil as he needed but, on returning home, was unable to bring it up or pass it down. So he rolled back and forth, suffering from pains that were piercing, racking, and agonizing. Then early in the morning the Blessed One, having put on his robes and carrying his bowl and outer robe, went into Savatthi for alms. He saw the wanderer rolling back and forth, suffering from pains that were piercing, racking, and agonizing,

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

How blissful it is, for one who has nothing.
Those who are expert
are people with nothing.
See how they suffer, those who have something,
people bound in mind
with people.

Gabbhini Sutta


Quote:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the dear and beloved only son of a certain lay follower had died. So a large number of lay followers — their clothes wet, their hair wet — went to the Blessed One in the middle of the day and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there the Blessed One said to them: "Why have you come here — your clothes wet, your hair wet — in the middle of the day?"

When this was said, the lay follower said to the Blessed One, "My dear and beloved only son has died. This is why we have come here — our clothes wet, our hair wet — in the middle of the day."

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:

Tied down by what's dear & alluring,
heavenly beings, most people,
worn out with misery,
fall under the sway of the King of Death.
But those who, day & night,
heedfully abandon what's dear,
dig up misery
by the root —
Death's bait
so hard
to overcome.

Ekaputta Sutta


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 4:54 pm 
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thornbush wrote:
Neither is it the Mahayana view.....mostly cultural and over-simplified versions of karma if some said yes to it...


Hi Thorny,

Oversimplification popped into my mind too. This article entirely ignores the fact that a human birth is extraordinarily fortunate and rare.

:namaste:


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 2:41 am 
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Greetings Eternal Spirit,

Yes, your comments are a much more satisfactory and comprehensive response than that provided by Ajaan Fuang. In his defence though, I'm sure his response was situationally correct, albeit not comprehensively covering all situations in which the Buddha provided various perspectives.

Metta,
Retro. :)

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 7:04 pm 
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retrofuturist wrote:
It's worth point out though that this isn't necessarily the Theravada point of view... just Ajaan Fuang's.

Okay, fair enough. But wouldn't it be correct to say Theravada Buddhism generally sees less value in marriage than Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism do? Isn't it true that Theravada is primarily the monastic path of renunciation? (Although I'm sure that many modern people try to interpret it any way they like.)

I'd be very interested to hear about any great ancient Theravada masters who were married while they were learning and teaching the Dharma. Were any of Buddha's closest disciples married and did they remain married?

In Vajrayana, some great ancient masters like Marpa and Machig Labdron were married. At the same time, I don't think any school of Buddhism is wildly enthusiastic about marriage.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 12:21 am 
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Greetings Luke,

The Vinaya precludes marriage... all Theravada bhikkhus and bhikkhunis are celibate.

The suttas however don't just teach to monastics, they also contain teachings directed at lay practitioners such as those references by Eternal Spirit. More examples at http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=259

Metta,
Retro. :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:06 am 
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Quote:
Student: When people want to get married, it's because they have a lot of bad karma with each other. Isn't that right?

Ajaan Fuang: Of course that's right. Just look at what they're doing. There's no need to explain. It's nothing but imposing on each other, causing each other affliction and pain. There's no real happiness there; nothing but suffering. Getting married is no way to escape suffering. Actually, all you do is pile more suffering on yourself.


:thinking: :rolling:

Is it really that bad?! Was he married before and perhaps had a terribly bad relationship?

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:08 am 
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Quote:
When people pressure you to get married and have children, it's like someone who walks along and steps in a pile of excrement and then tries to figure out how to get other people to step in it, too, to make up for his own mistake.


The Buddha taught that there are four assemblies; the monks, nuns, lay men, and lay women; they are all mutually inter-dependent upon each other.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:47 am 
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Greetings TheDhamma,

TheDhamma wrote:
Is it really that bad?! Was he married before and perhaps had a terribly bad relationship?

That's a pretty good question... I've read some monks say some pretty interesting things on "worldly matters" of which they have obviously had no direct exposure to.

Metta,
Retro. :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 6:19 am 
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Luke wrote:
At the same time, I don't think any school of Buddhism is wildly enthusiastic about marriage.

Neither were they antagonistic about it....it remains a personal and cultural/social boon or bane for the Laity...and off limits to some of the Ordained (where their Ordination Rules specify celibacy as a prerequisite).


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:07 am 
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Here's an article that might be of general interest about family life from a Tibetan Buddhist perspective.

Dharma and Family Life - by Bardor Tulku Rinpoche


http://www.kagyu.org/ktd/densal/archive ... family.php


:anjali:

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