Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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rachmiel
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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby rachmiel » Mon May 13, 2013 1:49 pm

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Astus
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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby Astus » Mon May 13, 2013 2:30 pm

Rachmiel,

1. It is possible to come up with different answers based on Buddhism. For the majority of Mahayana teachings, the answer is that there is nothing real outside, it is only the product of karma and ignorance, the conceptualisation of mind.

2. All teachings are only skilful means, they are not reified. So, when it is said that everything is mind made, the reason behind the teaching is to liberate beings from suffering. If it is used for something else, that is simply misunderstanding Buddhism.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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rachmiel
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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby rachmiel » Mon May 13, 2013 2:52 pm

Thanks, Astus. Will chew on ... :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby Azidonis » Mon May 13, 2013 4:55 pm


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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby Wayfarer » Tue May 14, 2013 1:29 am

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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rachmiel
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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby rachmiel » Tue May 14, 2013 2:13 am

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby Wayfarer » Tue May 14, 2013 2:25 am

I would be careful with statements about 'non-mind-dependent reality'. Have a look at .
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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rachmiel
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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby rachmiel » Tue May 14, 2013 2:44 am

I'm very careful when I talk about non-mind-dependent reality. (Which, of course, doesn't mean what I say is "right.")

"The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual." I don't see things quite that way.

Thanks for the link! :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby Wayfarer » Tue May 14, 2013 3:11 am

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby rachmiel » Tue May 14, 2013 4:01 am

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby Wayfarer » Tue May 14, 2013 6:51 am

I don't think so. Karma is as undeniable as gravity for any jiva. Deny it at your peril. (I once heard someone say "I used to believe that, until my karma ran over my dogma" :smile: ).
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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rachmiel
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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby rachmiel » Tue May 14, 2013 7:01 am

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby Jnana » Tue May 14, 2013 7:36 am


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rachmiel
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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby rachmiel » Tue May 14, 2013 11:50 am

Thanks for the links, Jnana. :-)

As for karma ultimately being or not being an illusion, my reasoning goes like this:

An enlightened being experiences no karma, because there is no (separate) self there to experience it.
The sense of being a separate self is an illusion.
When that illusion ends, through enlightenment, so does karma.

Yes? No? Maybe? None of the above? ;-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby Nicholas Weeks » Tue May 14, 2013 4:19 pm

A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

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Astus
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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby Astus » Tue May 14, 2013 4:54 pm

Just a side note: Tsongkhapa's madhyamaka is quite unique and differs from the others, usually (a lot) more complicated than madhyamaka is otherwise. As Jnana already did, I also recommend The Center of the Sunlit Sky as a thorough introduction. Other works by Brunnhölzl are also great.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 2820
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Location: California

Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby Nicholas Weeks » Tue May 14, 2013 5:23 pm

A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

Jnana
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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby Jnana » Tue May 14, 2013 7:10 pm


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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby Nicholas Weeks » Tue May 14, 2013 8:50 pm

Another excellent, simpler (but not simple) commentary, much earlier than Je Rinpoche's 'Ocean', is the Ornament of Reason by Mabja Bodhisattva. Snow Lion published it some time back.

http://www.shambhala.com/the-ornament-of-reason.html
A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

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Re: Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā: Questions and Comments

Postby Wayfarer » Tue May 14, 2013 10:32 pm

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi


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