Ayahuasca and Buddhism

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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Tron010101 » Mon May 13, 2013 10:29 pm

Stepping into the Fire. (Ayahuasca Documentary)

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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Tron010101 » Mon May 13, 2013 10:31 pm

Primary difference between DMT and Ayahuasca. Alex Grey !!

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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon May 13, 2013 10:51 pm

Tron010101 wrote:Primary difference between DMT and Ayahuasca. Alex Grey !!
Alex Grey!! Who is Alex Grey??
"He and his wife Allyson Grey are the co-founders of CoSM, Chapel of Sacred Mirrors, a non-profit church supporting Visionary Culture in Wappingers Falls, New York."
Gibberish. Drug induced, New Age, Aloha Amigo, nonsense. Could definitely benefit from an extended period of practice with a real teacher instead of wasting his time getting high.

As for Jerry Narby, he needs to learn and practice dream yoga.

You see, what you and all these "experts" are failing to understand is that it is the mind which is doing all the work, not the substances. You can recreate similar experiences (though why you would want to is a completely different question, because Buddhism is not about creating experiences, actually even meditational experiences can become obstructions) without resorting to substances. Ayahuasca is not magical, the mind is magical.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue May 14, 2013 12:21 am

Well, I like Alex Greys's art alot, but I wonder about his authority on vajrayana, though I know he is a practitioner in some sense, though i've never seen it explained in what sense..the fact that he likes Ken Wilber so much tells me all I need to know, frankly heh.

I don't like this overly permissive thing with drugs and whatnot in some corners of Buddhism, it's like "well the mahasiddhas did it so what the hell", really smacks of just reinforcing one's own indulgences, tbh.

I don't even doubt that substances have been used, by some practitioners, during some times, to good effect.

Frankly though, when it's a bunch of over-indulgent first worlders (myself included in that category) advocating this kind of "journey", one can't help having some real strong reservations.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Adamantine » Tue May 14, 2013 2:00 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Well, I like Alex Greys's art alot, but I wonder about his authority on vajrayana, though I know he is a practitioner in some sense, though i've never seen it explained in what sense..the fact that he likes Ken Wilber so much tells me all I need to know, frankly heh.

I don't like this overly permissive thing with drugs and whatnot in some corners of Buddhism, it's like "well the mahasiddhas did it so what the hell", really smacks of just reinforcing one's own indulgences, tbh.

I don't even doubt that substances have been used, by some practitioners, during some times, to good effect.

Frankly though, when it's a bunch of over-indulgent first worlders (myself included in that category) advocating this kind of "journey", one can't help having some real strong reservations.


I believe he sees Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche as his primary teacher, but so do other people that hybridize all sorts of things, ones who don't think of themselves as Buddhist, etc.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Tron010101 » Tue May 14, 2013 2:53 am

Alex Grey on Ayahuasca and Buddhism.

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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Tron010101 » Tue May 14, 2013 3:00 am

Sting on Ayahuasca...... Yes, Sting.

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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue May 14, 2013 3:12 am

Interesting, but one does not need Ayuhasca to experience those things, at all. I've had similar experiences without needing to ingest anything, vomit all over myself, and most importantly, without needing to assign undue meaning to my experiences, which is something that pretty much every teacher cautions against.

I also think it's irresponsible that he is even suggesting people do Ayuhasca in a Buddhist context, providing there is even any reason to think that his experience was somehow "more" due to the Ayuhasca, the assumption that people watching who might interested in Dharma would be able to tell the difference between a legitimate experience, and just collecting unusual experiences (which frankly is the vibe I got from the video) is a flawed one.

Seems to me there's a world of difference between meditating truly powered up by Bodhicitta, then accepting the results of that, then on the other hand simply seeking out unique and vivid experiences to collect, and then throwing Bodhicitta in there. It runs the very real and probably risk of ignoring actually dealing with anything, and just collecting vivid experiences that can be recalled and reinterpreted.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby simhanada » Tue May 14, 2013 3:21 am

Tron010101 wrote:Stepping into the Fire. (Ayahuasca Documentary)


The shaman in this video was arrested for homicide and illegally burying the body of Kyle Nolan from the US.

Whether it was a case of murder, negligence, misadventure or something else, it happened while he was intoxicated which is not really a good indictment of drug taking in general.

I don't have anything against these things as such. If people wish to do them go for it but there are inherent dangers in not being aware.

http://sebastopol.towns.pressdemocrat.c ... from-peru/
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f73/my-18- ... 10413.html
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Tron010101 » Tue May 14, 2013 3:25 am

Bruce Perry of BBC series, Amazon, on Ayahuasca.

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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Tron010101 » Tue May 14, 2013 3:35 am

Dr.Stanley Krippner on Ayahuasca.

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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue May 14, 2013 4:02 am

More on the subject:

As I understand it Boredom is a wholly indispensable part of meditation, as it (if nothing else) serves to show you your neuroses in a real light, and allows you to work with whatever is there. Shamatha for example on a gross level seems to work largely based on the fact that boredom and ennui is the vehicle that will actually let you being peeling back a teeny, tiny corner of emptiness.

It seems to me that circumventing that process by simply trying to get all these cool experiences with substances is a terrible idea, and in the case of most people will lead far away from actual progress, though again I do acknowledge that there is no hard and fast rule, and I am sure there are some yogi who have used it..I just don't think you, (or me), or anyone here is likely to gain anything but a pale imitation of actual meditative experience by using substances instead of doing it the standard way. You can predict exactly how someone in our culture would do this, read a bunch of books on Buddhism, think you understand them, then get bored and take some stuff, thinking you are having realization until either you get bored or freaked out - sounds like bad news overall.

Whenever I think about people who claim mystical experiences on substances I think of some of my old friends who were constantly frying and basically made themselves half-crazy, there was no clarity, no compassion for beings, no nothing but a bunch of pseudo-spiritual gobbledygook, and eventual pervasive paranoia. These guys were as far as you can get from any kind of "enlightenment", and went around worrying about pyschic attacks and what not eventually. They went from experiences like Alex Greys, to eventually a kind of claustrophobia where on some level the world was kind of psychically "out to get them". Now I know Ayuhasca differs greatly from something like LSD..but seriously, all you have to do is look at 99.999999% of drug users to see whether the practice lends itself to Buddhism or not. The resoundingly clear answer is that it very probably does not.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Tue May 14, 2013 4:12 am, edited 5 times in total.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Tron010101 » Tue May 14, 2013 4:05 am

Dr. Richard Grossman on Ayahuasca.

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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Tron010101 » Tue May 14, 2013 5:17 am

Dr. Charles Grob conducts clinical study on Ayahuasca and its Healing. Hard Facts.

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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby oushi » Tue May 14, 2013 8:04 am

Tron010101 wrote:@Oushi.
Look up Ayahuasca. Not DMT.

Aya is nothing but dirty DMT, that is, DMT with some extras. As it is a sacred tincture, it should be treated with respect. After acquiring the lesson, one should not run around expatiating about it, like a teenager who just came back from his first visit in brothel. This is exactly why those substances were banned in 60'. People lost their marbles after psychedelics. If you really know that stuff, why do you come and preach as an ant about the greatness of an elephant? Wisdom doesn't flow through your words, while it should. It takes years to be able to draw conclusions from deep psychedelic experiences. It is obvious for anyone who experienced proper trip, that we are dealing with great wisdom, and that is why we shouldn't think we can pick it up and wrap it in words. Meaning can be applied only to a fraction of it, so how do you draw conclusions so easily? To be able to apply meaning onto those experiences, more than a paper and pencil is needed. Think about it... about the moment in which you transform experience into words. How reliable is it?

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Interesting, but one does not need Ayuhasca to experience those things, at all.

Guessing will only create misunderstanding. ;)
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 14, 2013 9:37 am

Tron010101 wrote:Alex Grey on Ayahuasca and Buddhism.

...
Pseudo Buddhist justifications for getting stoned. He doesn't even take it in a ritual context. "Oh, the first dose hasn't kicked in yet let's double it..." What a dumb ass. The kind of behaviour one would expect from an adolescent tripper.

As for Sting getting stoned, well, what a surprise!? A rock musician taking drugs! It would never have crossed my mind. No sirree!

As for all the "Doctors" and their views... trying to convince us through an appeal to authority? Boring!

Tell you what, you continue tripping down your merry path of drug induced experiences and I'll keep on perservering with (the boring and frustrating task of) staring at my mind, and after Yama comes calling, and we pass through the various bardo, we will compare notes in our next existences. Deal is that whoever makes it through into a Pure Land will come back and warn the other one to not continue engaging in their ignorance and mistaken actions.

Deal?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 14, 2013 10:19 am

PS Given the topic of this thread is Ayahuasca and Buddhism, then why don't you try to find a youtube clip of a Rinpoche (or a teacher of any other Buddhist school/tradition) talking about the benefits of Ayahuasca?

Let's see how you fare with that task.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Tue May 14, 2013 10:32 am

And appeals to authority cut more than one way....Tron010101.
I could fill several pages on this thread quoting a host of Doctors, Mental Health workers, Buddhist teachers and Psychotherapists telling you that drugs are unnecessary at best, and deeply harmful to many.
They are not part of some Pharma conspiracy. They see it first hand.
I have no unrealistic hope that this will cut through your Denial Process.
But it might make others who have not yet gone your route think.
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby yegyal » Tue May 14, 2013 11:24 am

gregkavarnos wrote:PS Given the topic of this thread is Ayahuasca and Buddhism, then why don't you try to find a youtube clip of a Rinpoche (or a teacher of any other Buddhist school/tradition) talking about the benefits of Ayahuasca?

Let's see how you fare with that task.


I know a very prominent Rinpoche, whose name I shall not mention, that is very interested in ayahuasca, and I assure it's somebody you have lots of respect for. But you won't find any youtube clip about it because these things are done secretly and he seems to have a bit of a thing for secrecy. In fact, it's a pretty open secret, so I'm surprised that you wouldn't have heard about it. I'm sure others on here know who I'm alluding to, but are likewise not interested in naming names.

And Alex Grey is a long time student of Namkhai Norbu, who put together a book called Zig Zag Zen, so if you really are interested, which I kind of doubt, you can find lots of Buddhist teachers discussing psychadelics in that book.
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Tue May 14, 2013 11:37 am

Name him yegyal..put up or shut up.
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