From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

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From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat May 11, 2013 5:59 am

Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby Simon E. » Sat May 11, 2013 8:46 am

_/\_

:anjali:
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby Dan Dorje » Sat May 11, 2013 11:24 am

Thank you, dzogchungpa.
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby MalaBeads » Sat May 11, 2013 11:59 am

Very nice.

Thank you.

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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun May 12, 2013 3:18 pm

A cleaned up version is here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/140914458/Chogyal-Namkhai-Norbu-From-the-Depth-of-My-Heart-to-My-Mother
Just to be clear, I did not upload either of these files, I just noticed they were there.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby Jinzang » Sun May 12, 2013 7:58 pm

I'm a little surprised that teachings like these are placed openly on the Internet.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 12, 2013 8:04 pm

Why? Especially if you consider that these are the sorts of teachings ChNN gives over open webcasts.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby Dronma » Sun May 12, 2013 8:15 pm

Thank you, dzogchungpa! :namaste:

PS. This book is out of print now.
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun May 12, 2013 10:13 pm

I just noticed that today is mother's day, at least in the U.S., so that's auspicious I think.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby Jinzang » Mon May 13, 2013 1:33 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Why? Especially if you consider that these are the sorts of teachings ChNN gives over open webcasts.


I'd classifty the text as a pointing out instruction and usually they are not given out freely to everyone. At least ChNN's webcasts are meant for his students, so there is a student-teacher relationship. Anyone can read a text that's uploaded to scribd.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby anjali » Mon May 13, 2013 2:07 am

Jinzang wrote:I'd classifty the text as a pointing out instruction and usually they are not given out freely to everyone. At least ChNN's webcasts are meant for his students, so there is a student-teacher relationship. Anyone can read a text that's uploaded to scribd.

Perhaps. After looking it over, there doesn't seem to be anything in it that can't be found in other non-restricted texts. For example, Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's As It Is, Vols I & II. The only issue is that the work is copyrighted and likely published without permission.
  • The object of the game is to go on playing it. --John Von Neumann
  • All activities are like the games children play. If started, they can never be finished. They are only completed once you let them be, like castles made of sand. --Khenpo Nyoshul Rinpoche
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby Jinzang » Mon May 13, 2013 2:36 am

Well, sure. The cat's out of the bag and has been for a while. But the Third Karmapa's pointing out instructions, which I believe were published in Crystal Cave, explicitly say that they should only be shared with worthy students and I think that should apply to pointing out instructions in general. Other people might not agree, but that's what I think.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon May 13, 2013 2:45 am

Jinzang wrote:Well, sure. The cat's out of the bag and has been for a while. But the Third Karmapa's pointing out instructions, which I believe were published in Crystal Cave, explicitly say that they should only be shared with worthy students and I think that should apply to pointing out instructions in general. Other people might not agree, but that's what I think.

Why do you think that?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby Jinzang » Mon May 13, 2013 2:55 am

Because that is what I was told by my teachers and because I can see the fault it giving people a teaching that they are not yet ready for. I think in most cases pointing out instructions will go over the head of people not ready for them, but in some cases it can do some harm.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon May 13, 2013 3:12 am

Jinzang wrote:Because that is what I was told by my teachers and because I can see the fault it giving people a teaching that they are not yet ready for. I think in most cases pointing out instructions will go over the head of people not ready for them, but in some cases it can do some harm.

What kind of harm? Do you actually know of someone who was harmed in that way?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon May 13, 2013 9:15 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Jinzang wrote:Because that is what I was told by my teachers and because I can see the fault it giving people a teaching that they are not yet ready for. I think in most cases pointing out instructions will go over the head of people not ready for them, but in some cases it can do some harm.

What kind of harm? Do you actually know of someone who was harmed in that way?
Good question Dzogchungpa! You got me thinking.

You know what? Jinzang is right! I can think of at least 5-6 people here at Dharma Wheel whose spiritual progress has been harmed (and seriously so in some cases) by having access to teachings like these without recourse to qualified teachers.

What kind of harm? An increase in delusive ideation, a grasping to wrong views, increased ego-centred pride, etc...

Jinzang has a very valid point.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby ratna » Mon May 13, 2013 10:09 am

I think putting up this file is problematic not primarily because of lost sales to the publisher (it's an out of print book) nor because of its contents (way more esoteric material has been published openly). Rather, I'm afraid downloading a text like this is obtaining the teaching through a contaminated transmission, because it's disseminated without permission. A bit like drinking contaminated water -- perhaps better on balance than remaining thirsty, but pure water would be a lot healthier.

It's a pity that this wonderful book is not available in print or as an e-book.

R
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby alpha » Mon May 13, 2013 11:25 am

Jinzang wrote:I'm a little surprised that teachings like these are placed openly on the Internet.



if you are familiar with CNNr teaching you would know that he gives pointing out instructions with every webcast.

As to freely distributing copywrited material without the express permission from the publisher that is an entirely different issue altogether.


Whenever CNNr teaches he teaches dzogchen and he introduces dzogchen to everybody regardless of their sangha and teaching affiliation.

gregkavarnos wrote:
What kind of harm? An increase in delusive ideation, a grasping to wrong views, increased ego-centred pride. etc...

Jinzang has a very valid point.



This kind of harm can come from misunderstanding dharma in general.
I can't see this harm only being the province of restricted teachings.
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon May 13, 2013 4:47 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:You know what? Jinzang is right! I can think of at least 5-6 people here at Dharma Wheel whose spiritual progress has been harmed (and seriously so in some cases) by having access to teachings like these without recourse to qualified teachers.

What kind of harm? An increase in delusive ideation, a grasping to wrong views, increased ego-centred pride, etc...

Jinzang has a very valid point.

Could be, I was just asking.
ratna wrote:I'm afraid downloading a text like this is obtaining the teaching through a contaminated transmission, because it's disseminated without permission. A bit like drinking contaminated water -- perhaps better on balance than remaining thirsty, but pure water would be a lot healthier.

R

Well, this sounds a bit odd to me. In what way is it unhealthy, spiritually or whatever, to download this text?

alpha wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
What kind of harm? An increase in delusive ideation, a grasping to wrong views, increased ego-centred pride. etc...

This kind of harm can come from misunderstanding dharma in general.

Yes, I think you are right. Certainly from misunderstanding Zen in particular. :smile:
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: From The Depth Of My Heart To My Mother - ChNNR

Postby ratna » Mon May 13, 2013 7:58 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Could be, I was just asking.
ratna wrote:I'm afraid downloading a text like this is obtaining the teaching through a contaminated transmission, because it's disseminated without permission. A bit like drinking contaminated water -- perhaps better on balance than remaining thirsty, but pure water would be a lot healthier.

R

Well, this sounds a bit odd to me. In what way is it unhealthy, spiritually or whatever, to download this text?


Just that it's a pirated copy, uploaded without permission, that's all. Should we just ignore this? The way I feel about this is that it's as if some guy received a text from his Lama and was told not to share it with others, and the guy would go out and start making photocopies for his friends, it wouldn't feel right reading this stuff, would it? Perhaps I'm overreacting, I don't know.

I'm not a prude when it comes to downloading a Buddhist Studies dissertation here or a Game of Thrones episode there. But, personally, I feel different about things related to the transmission. I just saw a few days ago that someone had put up all the volumes of Longsal for download, and it made me really sad (this little volume, of course, is not that restricted). Generally, I think people should be a little more careful sharing this kind of material.

R
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