Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

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Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu May 02, 2013 8:36 pm

ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby Luke » Thu May 02, 2013 10:17 pm

I find it interesting that he recommends that people read the Tao Te Ching. I like reading it occasionally, but I always thought that most Buddhist teachers would view that book as being useless.
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu May 02, 2013 11:36 pm

Some more interesting book recommendations from DJKR:
And then to develop a critical mind, books such as 'The End of Faith' by Sam Harris, 'Feet of Clay' by Anthony Storr. 'Feet of Clay' may be good to read just before the Guru Yoga.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby ngodrup » Fri May 03, 2013 1:40 am

I think, he's suggesting that its useful as a support, rather than a main thing.
Several other Tibetan Lamas of Rinpoche's generation recommend reading
non-Buddhist spiritual literature "from time to time" to get a little different
perspective on a similar kind of thing. Ahnam Tulku, for example really
enjoyed sufi parables and shared them, citing the source, while linking
the theme to a strictly Buddhist topic. Some Lamas are quite well read,
and will quote Dostoyevsky as easily as Shabkar or Mila.
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby rai » Fri May 03, 2013 2:33 pm

btw. i think Rinpoche's "Dharma Das" program is based on this "curriculum" (http://www.dharmadas.co/mod/page/view.php?id=47)
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby MalaBeads » Fri May 03, 2013 3:06 pm

I have read "Feet of Clay". It is basically a debunking of the icons of western civilization. Which is fine. It includes people like Freud and St. Ignatius of Loyola.

I wonder, however, if someone were to write a similar book, debunking the masters of the Tibetan tradition, what would happen? They would be outraged, is my guess.

Just saying.
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby MalaBeads » Fri May 03, 2013 3:16 pm

Here is a review of "Feet Of Clay" from Publishers Weekly

"The wisest men follow their own direction and listen to no prophet guiding them," wrote Euripedes. Storr (Music and the Mind), a psychiatrist, uses this ancient caution as the epigraph to a fascinating yet frustrating investigation into the appeal of guru figures. He analyzes the lives and works of the destructive, unbalanced cult leaders Jim Jones and David Koresh, and he uses their symptoms?isolation, narcissism, paranoid delusion?to take the measure of other, generally more respected, "gurus," including Gurdjieff, Freud, Jung, Rudolf Steiner, Rajneesh, St. Ignatius, even Jesus. While insisting that none of these latter can be described as insane, Storr considers their authoritarian certainty an ominous sign. Stressing that there can be a charisma based on goodness and genuine devotion to truth rather than on the power of personality, Storr warns against teachers who claim to know what he judges no single person can know: "No one knows in the sense that Gurdjieff or Rajneesh or Jung believed that they knew and were supposed to know by their disciples." But Storr's elegantly written account is tarnished by his own unacknowledged authoritarianism. He never entertains the notion that there may be states of consciousness?states of knowing?that exceed customary bounds, so that a strange cosmology like Gurdjieff's might be understood not as a paranoid delusion or mere belief, but as a challenge to habitual modes of perception and cogitation that is composed with a clockmaker's care.
Copyright 1996 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri May 03, 2013 4:11 pm

I read "Feet of Clay" a long time ago and was not particularly impressed. That recommendation may be a bit of DJKR's subversive humor, although it is probably good for people to develop their critical thinking a bit, especially if they want to get involved with Vajrayana.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri May 03, 2013 7:31 pm

Another interesting recommendation:
Okay, next is bodhicitta. Here it would be good if you take a bodhisattva vow. Okay, reading materials – any book written by Dogen Zenji.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby MalaBeads » Fri May 03, 2013 9:32 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Another interesting recommendation:
Okay, next is bodhicitta. Here it would be good if you take a bodhisattva vow. Okay, reading materials – any book written by Dogen Zenji.


It might be worth mentioning that immediately after he mentioned this, he also said to remember that these recommendations are "a work in progress".

I have listened to this talk twice now. Once shortly after it was given and now again a second time for this thread. Both times, i had the same response. At first i thought, you know this is pretty good. By then end, i just stopped listening. What he suggests as practices are of course good to do. Especially if you are interested in preserving Tibetan cultural practices as religion.

But the minute you start "counting" your practices, you create another mind entirely, one that is not dharmic at all, imho. Yes, he is interested in creating a dharmic atmosphere as a foundation for practice. Maybe i just do not understand someone who completely lacks this. And maybe, because my own life has been so different from all this, i have no right saying anything at all about things i do not understand. Except for the fact that i have read a lot of Dogen.

Its also good to remember that as a "work in progress" this talk was given 5 years ago.

Blah, blah, blah from here.
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby Luke » Sat May 04, 2013 1:53 pm

I also found it interesting that Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche recommends that people do shikantaza and that they read books by Dogen!
I think that he would be very welcome in any Zen center. In fact, I think it would be very interesting to hear what kind of a dharma talk he would give to a Zen Buddhist sangha.
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby MalaBeads » Sat May 04, 2013 2:45 pm

Luke wrote:I also found it interesting that Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche recommends that people do shikantaza and that they read books by Dogen!
I think that he would be very welcome in any Zen center. In fact, I think it would be very interesting to hear what kind of a dharma talk he would give to a Zen Buddhist sangha.


Some years ago, DJKR travelled to Japan and spent, i think it was, about 10 days at a Zen monastery there. He said he did not tell them anything about who he was, or his "status". He came away saying it was a very profound practice. Which of course, it is.

:smile:
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby rai » Sat May 04, 2013 2:59 pm

Rinpoche's short reflections on "Just Sitting" https://soundcloud.com/siddharthas-inte ... 07/s-Cwx0C

:meditate:
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat May 04, 2013 3:06 pm

Luke wrote:I also found it interesting that Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche recommends that people do shikantaza and that they read books by Dogen!
I think that he would be very welcome in any Zen center. In fact, I think it would be very interesting to hear what kind of a dharma talk he would give to a Zen Buddhist sangha.
I imagine it would have the same subject matter as any talk given at any Buddhist center: the cultivation of wisdom and compassion.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby Luke » Sat May 04, 2013 11:51 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Luke wrote:I also found it interesting that Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche recommends that people do shikantaza and that they read books by Dogen!
I think that he would be very welcome in any Zen center. In fact, I think it would be very interesting to hear what kind of a dharma talk he would give to a Zen Buddhist sangha.
I imagine it would have the same subject matter as any talk given at any Buddhist center: the cultivation of wisdom and compassion.

Yeah, yeah, but it's interesting to see how great Buddhist teachers are affected by different environments and how these inspire them to do things in a slightly different way.

For example, the Dalai Lama always customizes his dharma talks to his audience a little bit, and I find it interesting to see the different ways he uses to connect with different types of people.

rai wrote:Rinpoche's short reflections on "Just Sitting" https://soundcloud.com/siddharthas-inte ... 07/s-Cwx0C

:meditate:

Interesting. Thanks for sharing :namaste:
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby kirtu » Sun May 05, 2013 3:35 am

MalaBeads wrote:Some years ago, DJKR travelled to Japan and spent, i think it was, about 10 days at a Zen monastery there. He said he did not tell them anything about who he was, or his "status". He came away saying it was a very profound practice. Which of course, it is.


Zen practice is really excellent Mahayana practice. However ....

gregkavarnos wrote:
Luke wrote:I also found it interesting that Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche recommends that people do shikantaza and that they read books by Dogen!
I think that he would be very welcome in any Zen center. In fact, I think it would be very interesting to hear what kind of a dharma talk he would give to a Zen Buddhist sangha.
I imagine it would have the same subject matter as any talk given at any Buddhist center: the cultivation of wisdom and compassion.


the presentation seems to be quite different from the Tibetan Buddhist systematic presentation with the systematic and frequently mentioned cultivation of Bodhicitta (although raising Bodhi Mind is in fact mentioned all the time in Zen). Some TB teachers have the impr3ession that Zen is strictly about emptiness which it is not. Compassion is not taught as directly as it is in Tibetan Buddhism.

Kirt
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby Gyaltsen Tashi » Fri May 10, 2013 4:03 am

How do you create an atmosphere of practice as Rinpoche says?
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby MalaBeads » Fri May 10, 2013 4:27 am

Gyaltsen Tashi wrote:How do you create an atmosphere of practice as Rinpoche says?


It somewhat depends on what you see as "practice" doesn't it?

The Japanese and Chinese of Dogen's time referred to this as a "way-seeking mind".

The only thing i know for sure is, if you try to impose it, you will create imposters.

A genuine way-seeking mind is the only thing that will bring true realization. A being must be propelled from within to seek realization. Otherwise, he or she will just be going through the motions. It will be, as i have heard DJKR say,"fake".

That's how I think about it.
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby Gyaltsen Tashi » Fri May 10, 2013 5:05 am

I am thinking in terms of what to do to get yourself inspired and comfortable, to sit longer and with more devotion. Not rushing to get the job done. it's like making tea like Rinpoche says.
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Re: Dzongsar Khyentse on ngondro

Postby MalaBeads » Fri May 10, 2013 5:27 am

Gyaltsen Tashi wrote:I am thinking in terms of what to do to get yourself inspired and comfortable, to sit longer and with more devotion. Not rushing to get the job done. it's like making tea like Rinpoche says.


"Longer", "more"

So you are from the More-Is-Better school of Buddhism?
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