Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Holybla
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 10:18 pm


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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Grigoris » Thu May 09, 2013 10:48 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Jnana
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Jnana » Thu May 09, 2013 11:00 pm


krodha
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby krodha » Thu May 09, 2013 11:16 pm

Last edited by krodha on Thu May 09, 2013 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Astus
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Astus » Thu May 09, 2013 11:16 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



krodha
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby krodha » Thu May 09, 2013 11:39 pm


Holybla
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 11:42 pm


Holybla
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 11:45 pm


Holybla
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 11:46 pm

IMHO this thread is a bit of devilry...

krodha
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby krodha » Fri May 10, 2013 12:30 am


Holybla
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Fri May 10, 2013 12:51 am


krodha
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby krodha » Fri May 10, 2013 1:17 am

Isn't it 'birds of a feather, flock together'?... Maybe hugging together is the saying where you're from I dunno. And ok discussion over, except ka dag and lhun grub aren't really proper equivalents to the two-truths. Vidyā and avidyā is the dzogchen treatment. Vidyā the single truth, everything else falling under avidyā, including conventionality. Although even non-dzogchenpas uphold the same - Nagarjuna states; "Since the Jinas have proclaimed nirvana alone is true, what wise person would not understand the rest is false?"

MalaBeads
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby MalaBeads » Fri May 10, 2013 1:40 am

"I'm not having fun anymore and want off this ride..."

Holybla,

Good luck with that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIb6AZdTr-A&sns=em
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

Holybla
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Fri May 10, 2013 1:55 am

Last edited by Holybla on Fri May 10, 2013 2:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

Holybla
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Fri May 10, 2013 1:55 am


MalaBeads
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby MalaBeads » Fri May 10, 2013 2:25 am

I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Grigoris » Fri May 10, 2013 9:13 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Grigoris » Fri May 10, 2013 9:24 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

krodha
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby krodha » Fri May 10, 2013 2:49 pm


krodha
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby krodha » Fri May 10, 2013 2:59 pm

It's definitely a topic which is a point of departure for people, I had a recent conversation with Jax where he vehemently opposed the kun byed rgyal po being the dualistic mind, Malcolm didn't write much but also maintained his position that it's the mind which is being referenced:

Jax wrote:
Kyle Dixon, so as you now see both you and Malcolm were wrong as per my quotes... And JL's comments had nothing to do with our conversation. Like I said: Boy, Kyle are you wrong:

From the Kunje Gyalpo Tantra: "Kunje Gyalpo declares: I am primordial self-perfection. I am the essence of of the state of self-perfection of all the Buddhas"

Namkhai Norbu writes: "The transmission of knowledge comes from the state of rigpa that has never been stained and has never been hindered. This is AdiBuddha, or the primordial Buddha, Kunje Gyalpo. The state of Kunje Gyalpo is knowledge (rigpa)..."

So admit you were wrong again Kyle along with your wrong concept about "emptiness being the result of the 4th vision of thogal, and your about face regarding Zhantong. You need to get out your books again and try to memorize this stuff... or just practice.


--------------

I wrote:
Jean-Luc's comments had everything to do with what we're discussing, he was addressing the very fact that the 'All-Creating King' is the mind.

As for Malcolm Smith being wrong, I would disagree and it's unfortunate you'd make such a claim.

I have no issue with making mistakes from time to time and admitting it, I don't allow for my confirmation biases to blind me from seeking the truth. When I recognize that I must admit wrong in my life, I do it with pride, because that is the only way I (and others) can grow.

Petty of me to do so but, may I point out that you weren't even aware that the realization of emptiness was associated with any of the visions (and you claim to teach that practice). I really have no position on Zhantong, it appears to be no different than Advaita Vedanta, but great masters such as Dudjom Rinpoche have proclaimed that it has useful application in practice so I remain open to it. I'm fairly unconcerned with that view, that is your own interest.


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Jax wrote:
Of course Malcolm was wrong. Didn't you read the quotes from the KJG Tantra and Norbu? Hello???

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Malcolm wrote:
Wrong about what?

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I wrote:
According to Jax, the following two quotes from Norbu Rinpoche's kun byed rgyal po translation refute your statement that the mind is the all-creating king:

From the Kunje Gyalpo Tantra: "Kunje Gyalpo declares: I am primordial self-perfection. I am the essence of of the state of self-perfection of all the Buddhas"

Namkhai Norbu writes: "The transmission of knowledge comes from the state of rigpa that has never been stained and has never been hindered. This is AdiBuddha, or the primordial Buddha, Kunje Gyalpo. The state of Kunje Gyalpo is knowledge (rigpa)..."


--------------

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, well jax just has to read more carefully and thoroughly.

--------------

Jax wrote:
Jax has to read "what" more thoroughly and carefully? The texts I posted were quite clear and carefully read before I posted them. The discussion was "What does the Kunje Gyalpo, "The All Creating Monarch" represent?

Kyle Dixon said "The all creating king indeed does represent ignorance since phenomena only arise from ignorance... The all creating king is the mind... not the gzhi, nor is it the dharmakaya, nor is it samantabhadra since those 3 are never involved in ignorance."

Jax: Now here are the correct facts: From the Kunje Gyalpo Tantra:

"Kunje Gyalpo declares: I am primordial self-perfection. I am the essence of of the state of self-perfection of all the Buddhas"

Namkhai Norbu writes: "The transmission of knowledge comes from the state of rigpa that has never been stained and has never been hindered. This is AdiBuddha, or the primordial Buddha, Kunje Gyalpo. The state of Kunje Gyalpo is knowledge (rigpa)..."

I rest my case and have no further reason to argue regarding what the Kunje Gyalpo means in Dzogchen. It does not mean as Kyle said it represents "ignorance". Rather it represents our primordial State as Rigpa or perfect Buddha Wisdom Mind.


--------------

Malcolm wrote:
Chnn has said more about this than is what in your citation.


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