Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 2:30 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:My point is, I am not a dzogchen missionary, believe me...

is that it does no good to just deny karma, deny cause and effect, and just pretend that you are in rigpa 24/7. I mean, didn't your dzogchen teacher give you any practices to do, or did they just say, "OK, now you have the introduction, see you on the other side?" Those practices are for dealing with your samsaric condition. It does no good to delude yourself and think that because everything is unreal, you don't have to worry about anything. Or what's worse, pointing to other practitioners and saying how low their view and practice must be because they are talking about karma, which of course we all no doesn't exist. I mean, is that what your teacher does?


Direct introduction and guru yoga is the main practice. Dzogchen is not the path of transformation so it is not dealing with your samsaric situation. It is going directly from mind to nature of mind. And yes he gave practices from higher and lower tantras. Dzogchen practitioners can even make use of non-buddhist methods if it helps.

And yes my teacher Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche does say that everything is unreal, it's a big dream, so we have to get to reality ASAP by doing guru yoga mainly. According to him, to be a perfect Dzogchen practitioner, simple GY of White A and Tigle, plus presence of mind through the day, is all we need to do.

He doesn't say we can ignore circumstances. We must be aware of our situation all the time. But he does say that we need not theorize about karma or engage in analysis. It is sufficient to be mindful of that state of Guru Yoga.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 2:31 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:Who is your teacher, if I may ask? I think you meant chos-nyid mgnon sum. What about it?


Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. Chonyid gnon sum is the experience of dharmata that completely dredges the pit of samsara and one will never return to it.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 2:34 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:I think you meant chos-nyid mgnon sum. What about it? Sorry, I have to walk my dog. This website has taken up so much of my time. I will say this, you are not the only person who has a teacher and has had pointing-out. If you are implying that you have stable realization, well that is good. Have a nice day.


I'm not talking about myself. I'm just relating what my teacher says.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby CrawfordHollow » Thu May 09, 2013 2:35 pm

Ummm....

Again, I think it was you who was theorizing about the nature of karma and causality. I was just making a point that all of the dzogchen masters, including Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche emphasize how important it is not to overlook your actions and results. If you really think that I must be a lower practitoner than you because I recognize this, then that is fine. Nice talking to you.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 2:42 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:Ummm....

Again, I think it was you who was theorizing about the nature of karma and causality. I was just making a point that all of the dzogchen masters, including Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche emphasize how important it is not to overlook your actions and results. If you really think that I must be a lower practitoner than you because I recognize this, then that is fine. Nice talking to you.


I never assumed anything of the sort. Again, I'm only relating why my teacher says. I'm sorry if I offended you. I have no idea what level you or anyone might be and don't care. My point is Dzogchen is always redirecting the mind back to the nature of mind. Rinpoche's comments on cause and effect are limited to what you just said, be aware. That's it. There's really nothing he has to say about details of cause and effect, etc. His point he always reiterates is not to engage in analysis. Go with the introduction and GY. I'm only wanting to emphasize that part.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby CrawfordHollow » Thu May 09, 2013 6:11 pm

He also emphasizes being present, though doesn't he? Being present is working with your circumstances when you are not in the natural state which is paying respect to cause and effect. This is the point that I have been emphasizing, and what all of the quotes that I posted were pointing to. I never said that you had to engage in complex analysis about cause and effect.
Last edited by CrawfordHollow on Thu May 09, 2013 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 6:11 pm

oushi wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:The Budha (and countless other realised beings).

How did they prove, that deluded being is not liberated after death?
Leaning on Buddha teachings, we can (and we do) believe in rebirth, but it is just a belief.
I do not really understand what you are saying here.

ok... what if there are tree gravity forces? One for matter, one for information/meaning, and one for awareness. Each of those forces is using other to shape/complicate itself. This would explain the incredible variety of life. Those three may be seen as physical world, samsara, and nirvana. Can you disprove it without saying that you don't believe it, because someone said it ain't so?

On the other hand. During last 200 years, the population of the world grew 7 times. What caused this incredible growth in great human birth? Reduction of animals? Why did the birth cycle reshape itself so profoundly, almost beyond belief from the reincarnation point of view.


This is a pointless bit of speculation. Samsara is infinite. You are assuming a lot. You can't prove rebirth is true or false. Your argument isn't all that skillful or probative of anything; it's confused and vague.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 6:13 pm

oushi wrote:
CrawfordHollow wrote:OK, then dzogchen doesn't discard the idea of causality either.

The difference between negating and discarding is huge, but you seem to share the same view toward both. I am not willing to go into the subject, mostly because of such attitude. From the sources concerning the subject that are available in the net, I can advise reading this: http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/old_man_basking_in_the_sun.htm
There you can read Longchenpa commentaries explaining this issue. Causality requires duality (cause and effect), where non-duality lies in the root of the teaching.


Duality is why you were born. Nonduality is what you have to be shown.
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Re: Uncertain Minds: How the West Misunderstands Buddhism

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 6:14 pm

oushi wrote:
CrawfordHollow wrote:Just because there is no inherent existence to your body does not mean that is does not change. In fact, the very nature of impermanence and cause and effect shows that there is no "I" in your body. If what you are trying to say is that karma has no inherent existence then you are correct, but that doesn't mean that deluded beings are not under the influence of cause and effect, even if that it is all just a big show of illusion.

If causality is only a big illusion, does it influence anything at all? I would assume that it deludes, but cannot influence anything directly. Going further I would ask, what is this being? Is it something different then this big illusion? No, so even this delusion is a fiction, a part of the show. Change is relative, if there is no reference point, then what? If you take the self as a reference point, then you have entire show started. But why would you take that illusory self as a reference point?
You are welcome to believe whatever you wish, Oushi.

According to my beliefs, all beliefs are aimless like blind man. No view is satisfying. Maybe just by coincidence, it goes hand in hand with what I read in Longchenpas teachings. If it all boils down, entire Buddhism becomes fault, although most helpful in heating the pot. Dzogchen is compassionate, so it has teaching for all kinds of people. Clever, less gifted with intelligence, and the middling (borrowed from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche). You can go through his "Rainbow Painting" (if I am not mistaken), from which you can deduce to which of those three groups did you teacher assign you. You will see how those teachings differ from each other.
But the dzogchen teachings speak for themselves.

Because it is a path, not a ultimate view, it changes responding to abilities of a student. Not a secret, it can also be read in the book.

gregkavarnos wrote:You are merely describing yet another one of the conditions for population growth. You will not see me disagreeing. And what was a formative factor for this condition arising? I'm having a hard time connecting vaccination with pretas.
Now, can you give us your theory? thx
Already have. Twice. It is called (and is the answer to the previous question I asked you)...

So, is it popular growth or invasion from another planet? Or maybe popular growth is a cause of this invasion, or invasion was caused by popular growth?
gregkavarnos wrote:Rebirth can also occur from the other four realms (hell, preta, deva, asura) and beings reborn on the planet earth do not necessarily have to come from the planet earth (though, due to karmic connections, it is more likely).


Information is not transformation. You you know in your mind you must integrate into your life. How does debating people do that?
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 6:18 pm

oushi wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Oushi I do not dwell in Rigpa.
It is quite obvious that you dont either. :lol:

And because of that we should derogate everyone that claims he dwells in it? No. I would be quite happy to hear that someone from this honorable company dwells in Rigpa. Unfortunately, I can only find people trying pull others down :shrug: . What's funny, most of them made vows to liberate others.

gregkavarnos wrote:
oushi wrote:Yes, work out - To prove successful, effective, or satisfactory.
According to whose criteria?
Where those instructions you received, not sufficient?
Sufficient for what?

Sufficient to remain in the natural state beyond elaboration, which can also be seen as criteria of success.


You have to understand that people think you can't have realized anything without having been shown by the teacher. So they think they need to undermine your confidence so you can go to a teacher. this is how they want to help you. You might be someone self-realized. It happens. But these folks won't accept it. Have you really demonstrated you dwell in rigpa? Saying so is a self-claim. So that instantly undermines your claim.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby heart » Thu May 09, 2013 6:38 pm

:smile:

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu May 09, 2013 7:19 pm

Holybla wrote:You have to understand that people think you can't have realized anything without having been shown by the teacher. So they think they need to undermine your confidence so you can go to a teacher. this is how they want to help you. You might be someone self-realized. It happens. But these folks won't accept it. Have you really demonstrated you dwell in rigpa? Saying so is a self-claim. So that instantly undermines your claim.
I would say undermine ego centred pride, not confidence. Confidence is just fine, or even necessary (in order to develop perserverance) when one has a stable foundation.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Jnana » Thu May 09, 2013 7:25 pm

Holybla wrote:
Jnana wrote:
Holybla wrote:What I was getting at is it seems Buddha didn't get into what is a cause and effect. Again I say in disagreement though, karma does not mean 'cause' it means 'action.

Yes, karma means "action." But there are other terms to consider. It might be useful to differentiate some of them. In the Nikāyas and Āgamas we find the terms hetu and paccaya (Skt. pratyaya) often used as synonyms. They are commonly translated into English as "cause" and "condition" respectively. For example in DN 15 we find these terms used together in the explanation of dependent origination as follows:

    Therefore, Ānanda, just this is the cause (hetu), the source (nidāna), the origin (samudaya), the condition (paccaya) for ageing and death, namely, birth ... the condition for birth, namely, becoming, etc.

In the Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma the terms hetu and pratyaya are further developed into the six causes and four conditions.

Other relevant terms are phala (fruit) and vipāka (result).


This a Dzogchen topic so lower yana terms are not going to work the same.

It wasn't a dzogchen topic when you stated that "Buddha didn't get into what is a cause and effect." The Buddha did speak of causes (hetu) and results (vipāka).

Holybla wrote:There is this notion of causes and conditions in Buddhism. But there is no real theory of causality coming from Buddha's mouth.

It's possible to differentiate between causality and conditionality. The Buddha expressed the latter with regard to specific conditionality (idaṃpratyayatā):

    When this is, that is.
    From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
    When this isn't, that isn't.
    From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

Which is then further developed into pratītyasamutpāda in both forward and reverse sequence, which is the framework for the origin of suffering and the cessation of suffering respectively.

Holybla wrote:A theory of causality would specify how these terms are to be used.

And this is what the Abhidharma schools did. The Sarvāstivāda was sometimes called the Hetuvāda.

Holybla wrote:There is actually to this day no valid theory of causation.

Yes, and with Madhyamaka phenomena are considered to be mere designations (prajñaptimātra). But this understanding doesn't deny the appearances of functional things.

Holybla wrote:And action per Nagarjuna is emptiness.

Empty actions still result in birth and death. Nāgārjuna's Pratītyasamutpādahrdayavyākhyāna:

    From this to the next world, not so much as an atom transmigrates, however, from factors (which are) only empty, empty factors originate. Entities are without self and that pertaining to a self, thus, afflictions and actions have become the causes. From these five factors (ignorance, craving, clinging, volitions and becoming) which are empty, originate sufferings without self and that pertaining to a self. The seven empty factors (consciousness, name and form, the six sense spheres, contact, feeling, birth and old age and death) are alleged to be effects.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 8:09 pm

@Jnana

You win. Except I don't agree with your differentiation of cause and condition. This then that is hardly a theory of causes or conditions. It stating a relationship of one thing follows another, not that one thing acts upon another. IMO this is a deep topic. Hume says the same thing, there's no causality only laws of regularity. Modernly, Rupert Sheldrake has theorized about laws of the universe as just habits rather than causal interactions. This is a philosophical doorway into the nonexistence of agents, objects and actions. Nagarjuna's whole spiels are all about This then that... It's cool to go from there into Dzogchen.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby asunthatneversets » Thu May 09, 2013 8:33 pm

Holybla wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:
Holybla wrote:People say cause and effect, cause and effect, and it sounds scientific. But Buddha meant something completely different. He's saying, we are self-generating this whole dream. Not that it comes from somewhere.


Right but that is precisely the cause and effect: because of our ignorance (cause), all the myriad originations apparently arise and are attributed validity (effect).

as Nagarjuna states:
"When the perfect vidyā sees,
That things come from ignorance as condition,
Nothing will then be objectified,
Either in terms of arising or destruction."


Again, Dzogchen doesn't follow these lines of reasoning. The master gives a direct introduction without recourse to analysis. Now, this is where the rubber hits the road: You said, "All the myriad originations apparently arise," but they don't actually arise. So nothing actually caused anything. Without the factors of an actual object, or an actual action, there's no actual cause and effect. The "delusion" is just like acting. If you are not acting, where's the story?


On the contrary, Dzogchen specifically follows this line of reasoning. The teaching of dzogchen is very much concerned with how ignorance arises, the factors that maintain it and how to dispel it from one's condition. The dzogchen model is one basis [Skt. sathāna, Tib. gzhi] and two paths [vidyā and avidyā]. If the basis' [gzhi] display is recognized to be self-display, then one has recognized vidyā [Tib. rig pa]. In contrast, if the display is mistaken as 'other', then one is caught in ignorance [Skt. avidyā, Tib. ma rig pa]. The guru attempts to introduce the aspirant to their nature in direct introduction, and if successful then the practitioner recognizes his/her nature and then rests in that discerning knowledge [vidyā].

Yes, all of the myriad originations 'apparently' arise, but of course just as most every school of the dharma upholds, the true nature [dharmatā] of phenomena [dharmas] is emptiness free from extremes. The issue is, that sentient beings do not recognize this to be true, and so phenomena are grasped at as valid and substantial and suffering arises. The fact that there is no 'actual' cause and effect is a redundant point, it makes no difference. Dzogchen isn't concerned with the notion of what the 'actual' state of affairs is, dzogchen is concerned with recognition of that or non-recognition of that, and the respective implications of each. This also has nothing to do with a 'story', because the fact that the 'story' is a 'story' is nothing more than a story itself (if that isn't definitively recognized). The intellectual conclusion that phenomena are in truth unborn is of little merit, the point is to recognize one's nature, stabilize and integrate with that knowledge and then eventually liberation will dawn in one's condition. Delusion may indeed be a story, but it is much more compelling and deeply engrained than a simple story, sentient beings have become conditioned habitually to function under the heavy hand of delusion. Discovering one's nature and integrating with that wisdom is a process of dispelling those delusional proclivities, so that the underlying nature can shine in it's fullness.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby asunthatneversets » Thu May 09, 2013 8:40 pm

Holybla wrote:I never assumed anything of the sort. Again, I'm only relating why my teacher says. I'm sorry if I offended you. I have no idea what level you or anyone might be and don't care. My point is Dzogchen is always redirecting the mind back to the nature of mind. Rinpoche's comments on cause and effect are limited to what you just said, be aware. That's it. There's really nothing he has to say about details of cause and effect, etc. His point he always reiterates is not to engage in analysis. Go with the introduction and GY. I'm only wanting to emphasize that part.


The point is to understand what it is that obscures the nature of mind, which is the causes and conditions that arise as a result of our karma or habitual tendencies to reify delusion. Recognizing one's nature and maintaining that recognition isn't so simple. Maintaining presence throughout the day etc., is good in that it curbs the proclivity to breathe life into affliction, however being present and aware isn't enough, the point is to recognize the natural state, and depending on the level of delusion that is present in one's condition, that may not be as simple as you suggest.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu May 09, 2013 8:50 pm

Some excellent points being made here! (a big :twothumbsup: to jnana and asunthat neversets)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby asunthatneversets » Thu May 09, 2013 8:59 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Some excellent points being made here! (a big :twothumbsup: to jnana and asunthat neversets)


Big :twothumbsup: to you as well! :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 9:22 pm

@asun...

Description of base isn't reasoning. Dzogchen is your nature not logic. Recognition depend on transmission. It's that simple indeed. The transmission isn't anything to do with talk about Karma. Ati GY and presence is awareness of ones karmic situation.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby asunthatneversets » Thu May 09, 2013 9:39 pm

Holybla wrote:@asun...

Description of base isn't reasoning. Dzogchen is your nature not logic. Recognition depend on transmission. It's that simple indeed. The transmission isn't anything to do with talk about Karma. Ati GY and presence is awareness of ones karmic situation.


I never suggested one's nature was logic, nor did I suggest recognition occurs independent of transmission. I agree the rigpai tsalwang doesn't have anything to do with talk of karma, however there is no harm in understanding karma and how it functions, the cause of delusion, what fuels the fire of delusion and what extinguishes it. We're all here on an internet forum to discuss dzogchen, and we all use concepts, words, ideas, interpretations, translations, language etc., to communicate, there's no harm in doing so. No one has suggested that the words are dzogchen, but we are all free do discuss dzogchen (subject matter appropriate for a public forum of course).
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