Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby MalaBeads » Thu May 09, 2013 2:50 am

"It's all blah blah blah if you don't know how to relate it to wisdom."

Good luck with that, Holybla.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby CrawfordHollow » Thu May 09, 2013 3:22 am

This has been the most time I have spent on a forum, ever!

I just want to say for my part, that I am not really interested in being right or proving anyone wrong. All that I want to say at this point is how important it is to be genuine about practicing dzogchen, or any spiritual path, for that matter. If you really want to be a dzogchen practitioner, if you really want to claim to know what dzogchen is all about, this means being willing to receive the teachings and transmission from a teacher. It seems that there is so much arguing these days between practitioners about what is this and what is that. None of that is important, and look at me saying this after pages of discourse. But what is important, what is vital is receiving the blessings from a lineage. Without that there is nothing to talk about. With the blessings of the lineage there is no need to talk in the first place.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby MalaBeads » Thu May 09, 2013 4:07 am

CrawfordHollow wrote:This has been the most time I have spent on a forum, ever!

I just want to say for my part, that I am not really interested in being right or proving anyone wrong. All that I want to say at this point is how important it is to be genuine about practicing dzogchen, or any spiritual path, for that matter. If you really want to be a dzogchen practitioner, if you really want to claim to know what dzogchen is all about, this means being willing to receive the teachings and transmission from a teacher. It seems that there is so much arguing these days between practitioners about what is this and what is that. None of that is important, and look at me saying this after pages of discourse. But what is important, what is vital is receiving the blessings from a lineage. Without that there is nothing to talk about. With the blessings of the lineage there is no need to talk in the first place.



Well, CrawfordHollow, I for one appreciate your posts. And I'm glad you are or have been here and I don't think your time has been wasted, as they say, in any way by being here. This may be the most time you've ever spent on a forum but my thanks to you for doing so.

And while I agree that with the blessings of the lineage, there is no need to talk in the first place, i will quote something I heard HHDL say just recently in a public talk in India, that "we are social animals" and I really feel that is also true.

I don't happen to be very good at the social side of things which is perhaps why I am here in the first place. In any case, thanks for all your posts. They have been helpful.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby CrawfordHollow » Thu May 09, 2013 1:40 pm

Oh boy, I'm blooshing!

No really, I am just afraid that this turned into a personal crusade played out on everyone's computer screen. I think that those of us who are genuine about the practice know what there is to know. Enough said.

Troy
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 1:49 pm

Jnana wrote:
Holybla wrote:What I was getting at is it seems Buddha didn't get into what is a cause and effect. Again I say in disagreement though, karma does not mean 'cause' it means 'action.

Yes, karma means "action." But there are other terms to consider. It might be useful to differentiate some of them. In the Nikāyas and Āgamas we find the terms hetu and paccaya (Skt. pratyaya) often used as synonyms. They are commonly translated into English as "cause" and "condition" respectively. For example in DN 15 we find these terms used together in the explanation of dependent origination as follows:

    Therefore, Ānanda, just this is the cause (hetu), the source (nidāna), the origin (samudaya), the condition (paccaya) for ageing and death, namely, birth ... the condition for birth, namely, becoming, etc.

In the Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma the terms hetu and pratyaya are further developed into the six causes and four conditions.

Other relevant terms are phala (fruit) and vipāka (result).


This a Dzogchen topic so lower yana terms are not going to work the same. In Dzogchen nyingthig there's the notion that all is rigpa. You don't have this in the Hinayana. Dzogchen puts the lens to the inner world exclusively because there's no inner outer duality. That's why it's the path beyond cause and effect.

But to comment on your quote: There is this notion of causes and conditions in Buddhism. But there is no real theory of causality coming from Buddha's mouth. Your quote is saying (paraphrasing) "It's the cause, source, origin, condition, or whatever you want to call it." And he uses these terms interchangeably. A theory of causality would specify how these terms are to be used. For example, conditions precedent versus conditions subsequent or concurrent. Proximate cause, actual cause, contributory cause, etc. Hume couldn't succeed in isolating any of this and no one has improved on his work. No scientist has. There is actually to this day no valid theory of causation. That's really one of those remarkable cues to wake up from the dream of existence.

So, because we are working with loose terms, we can't treat them as hard and fast terms. Yes there are actions and fruits, the actions cause the fruits, and the fruits are the conditions for more actions. That we get. We can sort of leave it at that. We don't need to get deep into these notions because they don't lead to anything like liberation. Instead, they lead to endless intellectual analysis, prapanca. Especially to a newbie with a fully indoctrinated science view, these ideas are what make Buddhism a palatable religion. There's something more 20th century in Buddhism and less pre-modern era, something quantum. As soon as you go to look for the cause, i.e., desire, you don't see it. As soon as you aren't trying to see it, it comes on strong. Or you can say once you have habit of behavior under the lens, you don't find it. What is a behavior? Action. And action per Nagarjuna is emptiness.

So just to reiterate what my main point is, it's inside of us where our minds should focus, not on theories in books.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby CrawfordHollow » Thu May 09, 2013 1:53 pm

But who's focusing on theories from books :shrug:
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby CrawfordHollow » Thu May 09, 2013 1:59 pm

And dzogchen doesn't deny causes, even if those causes are illusionary.

"The contaminated forms of samsara do not develop without any cause as Lokayata asserts... They arise from the cause of contaminated karmic and emotional defilements."
Khenpo Nuden, The Practice of Dzogchen

Samsara has a cause, ignorance. And while under the influence of dualistic perception, karma, and cause and result work just the same as they do in the lower vehicles.

"What is the reason for the various ocurrences of happiness and suffering to every individual while wandering in painful cyclic existence? It is because of karma... The fruit of different karmas, composed of different causal conditions..."
Longchenpa

So yes, again, we look in and discover rigpa, integrate that knowledge, and our respect karmic cause and effect just with our conduct.
Last edited by CrawfordHollow on Thu May 09, 2013 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 2:03 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
Holybla wrote:People say cause and effect, cause and effect, and it sounds scientific. But Buddha meant something completely different. He's saying, we are self-generating this whole dream. Not that it comes from somewhere.


Right but that is precisely the cause and effect: because of our ignorance (cause), all the myriad originations apparently arise and are attributed validity (effect).

as Nagarjuna states:
"When the perfect vidyā sees,
That things come from ignorance as condition,
Nothing will then be objectified,
Either in terms of arising or destruction."


Again, Dzogchen doesn't follow these lines of reasoning. The master gives a direct introduction without recourse to analysis. Now, this is where the rubber hits the road: You said, "All the myriad originations apparently arise," but they don't actually arise. So nothing actually caused anything. Without the factors of an actual object, or an actual action, there's no actual cause and effect. The "delusion" is just like acting. If you are not acting, where's the story?
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby CrawfordHollow » Thu May 09, 2013 2:05 pm

How is this different in dzogchen than in sutra? While in samsara, we are conditioned by those illusions that apparently arise but have no inherent existence. If you are a dzogchen practitioner and you commit a bunch of horrible non-virtuous deeds, you will still end up in a bad rebirth. Just because you get the pointing-out doesn't mean that you are automatically liberated from samsara.
Last edited by CrawfordHollow on Thu May 09, 2013 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 2:05 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:But who's focusing on theories from books :shrug:


Well, it's clear to a Dzogchen practitioner that this discussion is not about Dzogchen so much as it is about Mahayana and Hinayana which is in books. The folks dealing with the master's introduction are not talking.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby CrawfordHollow » Thu May 09, 2013 2:08 pm

Ummm...

So where does that leave you?
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 2:08 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:How is this different in dzogchen than in sutra? While in samsara, we are conditioned by those illusions that apparently arise but have no inherent existence. If you are a dzogchen practitioner and you commit a bunch of horrible non-virtuous deeds, you will still end up in a bad rebirth. Just because you get the pointing-out doesn't mean that you are automatically liberated from samsara.


Sutra engages in intellectual analysis using the mind and has schools of thought on various topics. Dzogchen is your real condition and is completely beyond the mind. It is not a school.

It's true bad acts have bad effects. But a Dzogchen practitioner isn't a Dzogchen practitioner just by getting introduction. She must also be present and aware of circumstances, yes, causes and conditions, and be careful not to allow the mindfulness of the nature of mind to falter. If the nature can be kept in focus, then negative emotions don't take hold. If there's a slip and a fault, then one should try to recognize that fault and get back into the state of guru yoga. That purifies everything from beginningless samsara.

But if you get the pointing out, and you are able to receive the pointing out of the first vision of dharmata in direct perception, then you are completely and utterly liberated from samsara. This is a special feature of Dzogchen longde and nyingthig.
Last edited by Holybla on Thu May 09, 2013 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 2:09 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:Ummm...

So where does that leave you?


No where really.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby CrawfordHollow » Thu May 09, 2013 2:11 pm

For my part in this conversation, I was simply trying to clear up a misconception that once your a dzogchen practitioner, karma doesn't need to be observed, which is true. And yes, I used books to support myself, is that really that bad? Do you disagree with Dudjom Rinpoche and Longchenpa as well?
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby CrawfordHollow » Thu May 09, 2013 2:14 pm

Sigh...

Yes, dzogchen is your real condition, but you have deviated from that condition, haven't you? And since you are in illusory samsara, you would do best to heed the words of all the illusory dzogchen masters and observe your illusory conduct or else you will end up in illusory hell.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 2:18 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:Sigh...

Yes, dzogchen is your real condition, but you have deviated from that condition, haven't you? And since you are in illusory samsara, you would do best to heed the words of all the illusory dzogchen masters and observe your illusory conduct or else you will end up in illusory hell.


see my edited post above.

Chonyid gnon sum is an utter freedom from samsara with no backsliding.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 2:19 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:Sigh...

Yes, dzogchen is your real condition, but you have deviated from that condition, haven't you? And since you are in illusory samsara, you would do best to heed the words of all the illusory dzogchen masters and observe your illusory conduct or else you will end up in illusory hell.

I heed the words of my teacher rather than reading endless books from masters I never met.
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby CrawfordHollow » Thu May 09, 2013 2:20 pm

My point is, I am not a dzogchen missionary, believe me...

is that it does no good to just deny karma, deny cause and effect, and just pretend that you are in rigpa 24/7. I mean, didn't your dzogchen teacher give you any practices to do, or did they just say, "OK, now you have the introduction, see you on the other side?" Those practices are for dealing with your samsaric condition. It does no good to delude yourself and think that because everything is unreal, you don't have to worry about anything. Or what's worse, pointing to other practitioners and saying how low their view and practice must be because they are talking about karma, which of course we all no doesn't exist. I mean, is that what your teacher does?
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby Holybla » Thu May 09, 2013 2:20 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:For my part in this conversation, I was simply trying to clear up a misconception that once your a dzogchen practitioner, karma doesn't need to be observed, which is true. And yes, I used books to support myself, is that really that bad? Do you disagree with Dudjom Rinpoche and Longchenpa as well?


I'm not disagreeing with you or anyone. I'm only shining a light on this here chonyid gnon sum. Check it out...
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Re: Dzogchen, karma and ultimate truth

Postby CrawfordHollow » Thu May 09, 2013 2:23 pm

I think you meant chos-nyid mgnon sum. What about it? Sorry, I have to walk my dog. This website has taken up so much of my time. I will say this, you are not the only person who has a teacher and has had pointing-out. If you are implying that you have stable realization, well that is good. Have a nice day.
Last edited by CrawfordHollow on Thu May 09, 2013 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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