Mahamudra and tantra

deepbluehum
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby deepbluehum » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:19 am

Yes. Any swift attainment is due to past karma. In Co-Emergent Mahamudra where emotions are taken onto the path "abiding," is the shyamatha application of realization, the resting. The vipashyana realization is three parts: 1) Mahamudra of the nature of mind, 2) Mahamudra of thought, and 3) Mahamudra of appearance. Rounded up, there is just clarity-emptiness. But the test of whether one has a stable realization is whether one can abide in the nature of mind, whether thoughts of the three times resolve into their own place, and whether one can recognize that emotions arising in connection between sense organs and objects have the nature of space. Although true "Essence," does not need to take emotions on the path, these qualifications are helpful to know if one has real experience of "Mahamudra." Anyway a real cig char ba will never come across these issues, because the guru will have known that person is ready; after pointing out, the cig char ba goes directly to buddhahood. I have never heard of any teacher report any real cig char ba.

In the bone yard
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby In the bone yard » Sat May 04, 2013 6:25 pm

Chogyam Trungpa has said Mahamudra is lower tantra (first 3 yanas of tantra).

Because Buddhism steers us away from intellect, there can be many meanings to one word.
Because this religion teaches us to look inward rather than outward to find god, there are more meanings to just one word.
The deeper the teaching the more meaning a word may contain.
Consider one's level of understanding.

Mahamudra as a lineage can be traced back to Saraha but lineages don't have to hold their own.
For instance Mahamudra in practiced in the Kagyu lineage.

Practioners get hung up on terminologies within lineages, but there can only be one path, although many different methods (lineages) to traverse it.

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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby muni » Sat May 04, 2013 6:46 pm


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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby heart » Sat May 04, 2013 10:20 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby In the bone yard » Sun May 05, 2013 8:42 pm


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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby heart » Mon May 06, 2013 5:30 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Lingpupa
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby Lingpupa » Tue May 07, 2013 3:06 pm

Magnus said that the statement that mahamudra belongs to the outer three tantras makes no sense to him. Me neither.

If we leave aside things like sutra or essence mahamudra and seek to locate mahamudra in the tantric scheme, it turns out to be dead easy. It belongs to HYT. There isn't really any scope for discussion there - it simply is so, as has been explained innumerable times by every authority who has addressed the issue.

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randomseb
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby randomseb » Tue May 07, 2013 4:35 pm

Mahamudra seems to be the highest level of practice in the Kagyu lineage, and the Karmapa said Trungpa was "The Guy" in the West for Kagyu, at the time, so this doesn't make too much sense, but then again Trungpa might have been addressing the attachments of a specific crowd, something that happens a lot with good teachers, apparently

On the other hand, Tantra practice, that is to say the mantra practice, seems to me to be similar to a shamata, where you are using the mantra as an object of focus and keeping your awareness on it and the visualization is the same kind of focus as keeping awareness on some visual object and your breathing, let's say.. Just using sense organ of the brain instead of sense organ of the eye, you know?

:shrug:

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conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby conebeckham » Tue May 07, 2013 6:09 pm



"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue May 07, 2013 6:30 pm

Some tantric sadhanas include mahamudra meditations!

Speaking purely as a tantra newbie, my limited experiences seems to be that tantra by definition includes the elements of vipassana and shamatha, the weird thing is they happen the same time as normal awareness and appearances, unlike doing sutra practices in isolation where one either "steps into sunyata" or is in normal awareness.

Mahamudra is such an encompassing term, it seems like trying to define it is somewhat pointless, everything i've read on the subject seems to avoid just that, and encourage letting go of definitions.

I actually don't remember anything like that from Lion's Roar ( not to say it isn't there, just don't remember it)..all I remember was the usual metaphors I have read elsewhere..reality as it is, kind of experience of reality without a center, etc.
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Grigoris
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby Grigoris » Tue May 07, 2013 10:28 pm

All sadhana are Mahamudra practices (that's what my teachers tell me, now if only I could put their teachings into practice... :(
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby anjali » Wed May 08, 2013 12:38 am

All things are unworthy of clinging to (sabbe dhammā nâla abhinivesāyā). --Shakyamuni Buddha
Wanting to grasp the ungraspable, you exhaust yourself in vain. --Gendun Rinpoche

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randomseb
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby randomseb » Wed May 08, 2013 1:26 am

I once was told that mahamudra is sort of the Tibetan version of Zen practice, if that's of any help to anyone in making a frame of reference. Assuming one's studied and contemplated the texts of the Patriarchs and ancient Masters, as opposed to just sitting militantly in some modern group

:rolling:

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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby MalaBeads » Wed May 08, 2013 1:19 pm

Thank you Anjali for the post. It was helpful.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

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Grigoris
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby Grigoris » Wed May 08, 2013 2:29 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

lama tsewang
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby lama tsewang » Sat May 11, 2013 10:10 am

originally there was just one practice of just sitting. later they developed koans, the original zen practice is done by the soto zen lineage.

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Astus
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby Astus » Sun May 12, 2013 8:38 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun May 12, 2013 11:52 pm

Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

In the bone yard
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby In the bone yard » Wed May 15, 2013 1:46 am


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conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra and tantra

Postby conebeckham » Wed May 15, 2013 2:28 am

Bone yard-

You'll find the term "mahamudra" in the Highest Yoga tantras, especially the Mother and Nondual subclasses.

You'll also find it in the dohas of the Mahasiddhas. You should check out the Third Karmapa's "Aspiration prayer of Mahamudra," along with any commentary you can find on the text--there are a variety of books with this material published. This should quickly clarify any misconceptions you may have about Mahamudra being a "lower" teaching.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")


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