Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
User avatar
vinodh
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:06 pm
Location: St Andrews, Scotland
Contact:

Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by vinodh »

Hi All,

I was recently reading about people preserving their body at cryogenic temperatures, in the hope that in the future that they can perhaps be re-animated :thinking:

Since, the person is already dead, he/she would have already had rebirth(s).

Assuming, that in the future that it is possible to re-animate the body - I was just wondering "who" the reanimated person will be :shrug:

Any thoughts !

V
http://www.virtualvinodh.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yo dharmaṁ paśyati, sa buddhaṁ paśyati

One who sees the Dharma, sees the Buddha
śālistamba sūtra

na pudgalo na ca skandhā buddho jñānamanāsravam
sadāśāntiṁ vibhāvitvā gacchāmi śaraṇaṁ hyaham

Neither a person nor the aggregates, the Buddha, is knowledge free from [evil] outflows
Clearly perceiving [him] to be eternally serene, I go for refuge [in him]
saddharma-laṅkāvatāra-sūtra
User avatar
Wayfarer
Former staff member
Posts: 5150
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: AU

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by Wayfarer »

I once heard a rumour that Walt Disney did this. I thought it was very sad. It is such a sad misunderstanding of the nature of life and death, to try and cling to the body like that.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
plwk
Posts: 2932
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 am

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by plwk »

There is a beautiful account of the meeting between the Pure Land Patriarch T'an Luan and the famed translator/monk Bodhiruci. T'an Luan (488-554), seeking immortality, travelled about China obtaining teachings from various noted sages, including the Taoist master T'ao Hung-ching. Eventually (ca. 530) he met with the Indian Buddhist teacher Bodhiruci:

"T'an Luan opened the conversation by saying
'Is there anything in the Teaching of the Buddha which is superior to the methods for obtaining immortality found in this country's scriptures on the immortals?'

Bodhiruci spat on the ground and said, 'What are you saying? There is no comparison! Where on this earth can you find a method for immortality? Suppose that you can obtain youth in your old age, and never die: even having done that, you would still be rolling around in the Triple World!'

So he gave him the Meditation Sutra and said, 'These are the recipes of Amitabha Buddha: if you rely on his practices, you will be liberated from Samsara.'"

I can imagine Bodhiruci commenting...
'What are you saying? There is no comparison! Where on this earth can you find a method for immortality? Suppose that you can obtain youth by being a frozen popsicle, and never die: even having done that, you would still be rolling around in the Triple World!' :tongue:
shel
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by shel »

If mind and matter were somehow separate the thought of cryogenic suspension wouldn't be to some... uncomfortable? On the other hand, who's to say that the mind wouldn't decide to wait for the thaw. :tongue:
Last edited by shel on Wed May 08, 2013 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
pueraeternus
Posts: 865
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by pueraeternus »

vinodh wrote:Hi All,

I was recently reading about people preserving their body at cryogenic temperatures, in the hope that in the future that they can perhaps be re-animated :thinking:

Since, the person is already dead, he/she would have already had rebirth(s).

Assuming, that in the future that it is possible to re-animate the body - I was just wondering "who" the reanimated person will be :shrug:

Any thoughts !

V
My thoughts are that for this to work, the person would have to be put into suspended animation before they actually died. But I think this is always done after the person is medically dead?
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher
User avatar
dharmagoat
Posts: 2159
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by dharmagoat »

It comes down to the question of whether death can ever be reversed. If it turns out that it can, then the theory of rebirth will need some tweaking.
Huseng
Former staff member
Posts: 6336
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by Huseng »

dharmagoat wrote:It comes down to the question of whether death can ever be reversed. If it turns out that it can, then the theory of rebirth will need some tweaking.
If time travel becomes possible then we might have even greater existential problems to deal with.
Jesse
Posts: 2127
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by Jesse »

dharmagoat wrote:It comes down to the question of whether death can ever be reversed. If it turns out that it can, then the theory of rebirth will need some tweaking.
How about if we could completely clone somebody, with memories and all. I think it just proves non-self even more. There's really not anyone to die, be reborn, or come back to life(lol). :shrug:
Indrajala wrote:If time travel becomes possible then we might have even greater existential problems to deal with.
Depends, I think there's quite a few different theories of time. If there are infinite time-lines for all possible outcomes, then I can't find any issues. :geek:
Image
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
User avatar
dharmagoat
Posts: 2159
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by dharmagoat »

Jesse wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:It comes down to the question of whether death can ever be reversed. If it turns out that it can, then the theory of rebirth will need some tweaking.
How about if we could completely clone somebody, with memories and all. I think it just proves non-self even more. There's really not anyone to die, be reborn, or come back to life(lol). :shrug:
You said it. :namaste:
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by Simon E. »

vinodh wrote:Hi All,

I was recently reading about people preserving their body at cryogenic temperatures, in the hope that in the future that they can perhaps be re-animated :thinking:

Since, the person is already dead, he/she would have already had rebirth(s).

Assuming, that in the future that it is possible to re-animate the body - I was just wondering "who" the reanimated person will be :shrug:

Any thoughts !

V
Buddhist rebirth is not Hindu reincarnation. The ' who ' would be a collection of changing skandhas/kandhas..just as it was before death. Not a soul.
It would simply be a new set of conditions causing the arising of skandhas/kandhas.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
User avatar
dharmagoat
Posts: 2159
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by dharmagoat »

Simon E. wrote:Buddhist rebirth is not Hindu reincarnation. The ' who ' would be a collection of changing skandhas/kandhas..just as it was before death. Not a soul.
It would simply be a new set of conditions causing the arising of skandhas/kandhas.
This explanation would allow for multiple 'rebirths' of a single individual, especially if that individual were to die multiple times.

An interesting thought.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8881
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by Astus »

I'm no expert in medicine or biology, however, as I've heard, frozen dead bodies can never be reanimated because by freezing the cells they are practically destroyed (just as freezing water can break the bottle).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
vinodh
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:06 pm
Location: St Andrews, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by vinodh »

pueraeternus wrote: My thoughts are that for this to work, the person would have to be put into suspended animation before they actually died. But I think this is always done after the person is medically dead?
Well.. People say that the neural connections in the Brain remain intact, a few hours after the clinical death. Since, Neural connections allegedly preserve our identity (i.e Memories etc. ), the believe some how in the future there will be technology to either retrieve the identity from the intact brain to a machine or whatever (some Cryonic facilities store only the severed head ! ) or re-animate the "frozen" body itself.
astus wrote: I'm no expert in medicine or biology, however, as I've heard, frozen dead bodies can never be reanimated because by freezing the cells they are practically destroyed (just as freezing water can break the bottle).
They seem to inject the body with some chemical fluid into the body to avoid this.

V
http://www.virtualvinodh.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yo dharmaṁ paśyati, sa buddhaṁ paśyati

One who sees the Dharma, sees the Buddha
śālistamba sūtra

na pudgalo na ca skandhā buddho jñānamanāsravam
sadāśāntiṁ vibhāvitvā gacchāmi śaraṇaṁ hyaham

Neither a person nor the aggregates, the Buddha, is knowledge free from [evil] outflows
Clearly perceiving [him] to be eternally serene, I go for refuge [in him]
saddharma-laṅkāvatāra-sūtra
Huseng
Former staff member
Posts: 6336
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by Huseng »

Well.. People say that the neural connections in the Brain remain intact, a few hours after the clinical death. Since, Neural connections allegedly preserve our identity (i.e Memories etc. ), the believe some how in the future there will be technology to either retrieve the identity from the intact brain to a machine or whatever (some Cryonic facilities store only the severed head ! ) or re-animate the "frozen" body itself.
Rupert Sheldrake has some innovative ideas backed up with his own experiments about memories being stored outside the brain, which likewise helps to explain the mechanism behind telepathy which statistically shouldn't happen as often as it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake
shel
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by shel »

Simon E. wrote:
vinodh wrote:Hi All,

I was recently reading about people preserving their body at cryogenic temperatures, in the hope that in the future that they can perhaps be re-animated :thinking:

Since, the person is already dead, he/she would have already had rebirth(s).

Assuming, that in the future that it is possible to re-animate the body - I was just wondering "who" the reanimated person will be :shrug:

Any thoughts !

V
Buddhist rebirth is not Hindu reincarnation. The ' who ' would be a collection of changing skandhas/kandhas..just as it was before death. Not a soul.
It would simply be a new set of conditions causing the arising of skandhas/kandhas.
The interesting part is that the "set of conditions causing the arising of skandhas/kandhas" would be cryogenically suspended, with the body. What can be inferrrrrrrred from that?
User avatar
Wayfarer
Former staff member
Posts: 5150
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: AU

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by Wayfarer »

But they wouldn't. How could you say they would? A causal factor in the chain of causation, might be an intention - in fact, often is. And an intention is not a physical thing, amy more than a thought. You cannot point to anything anywhere in the objective realm known to sciences and say 'there is an intention'. Intentions are only ever associated with subjects, and the subject is not this or that. Do you think if a body was in suspended animation, and came to again, the subject would be saying 'now, where was I...' :smile:
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
User avatar
randomseb
Posts: 255
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:12 am

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by randomseb »

If the future and the past all exist as a result of the present, there's no reason why a cryopsycle would acquire a rebirth if it is going to be reanimated at some point, but if it would never get reanimated then it would perhaps acquire a rebirth, see?
Disclaimer: If I have posted about something, then I obviously have no idea what I am talking about!
User avatar
Wayfarer
Former staff member
Posts: 5150
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: AU

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by Wayfarer »

It is never the body that is reborn in the first place. The cycle of birth and death is driven by avidya which is the first factor of the chain of origination.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
shel
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by shel »

jeeprs wrote:Do you think if a body was in suspended animation, and came to again, the subject would be saying 'now, where was I...' :smile:
Depends on the process (could be instantaneous?), and I guess whether or not the subject knew that they were going to be put into suspended animation. Regarding causal factors, there would be no cause for the subject to be any different than they were before suspension. Their intents and purposes would be the same.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9397
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Cryonic Preservation and Rebirth

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

vinodh wrote:I was recently reading about people preserving their body at cryogenic temperatures, in the hope that in the future that they can perhaps be re-animated :thinking: Since, the person is already dead, he/she would have already had rebirth(s). Assuming, that in the future that it is possible to re-animate the body - I was just wondering "who" the reanimated person will be
It is a good topic, but there is a problem in the question, because it approaches the issue as though there is a self which lives, dies, is frozen, is thawed out, is reborn, and so on, rather than looking at the whole thing as a collection of concurrent conditions (what other responses have alluded to).

What we can ask, is if the body and physical brain dies, and is later thawed out and brought back to life, and some memory is retained, then what is the nature of that memory?

Actually, a not-so-drastic version of this question is brought up in the book,
On Buddha Essence
A Commentary on Rangjung Dorje's Treastise
by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche

only there, the question has to do with memeory returning after sleep, or after being in a coma.
.
.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Post Reply

Return to “Dharma in Everyday Life”