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Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong? - Dhamma Wheel

Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DarwidHalim
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Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:12 am

In Buddhism cosmology, the highest realm god is formless god realm, which is the realm of neither perception nor non-perception.

This God realm is considered as the peak of samsara.

We do a meditation and we may think that our meditation is great. But it is not a guarantee. We may end up in the formless God.

The cause of rebirth in God realms then becomes very crucial to be understood if we want to have a perfect meditation without any subtle mistakes.

In a meditation, we will reach a very high state where we have neither perception nor non-perception. However, it is still in samsara. What's wrong?!

There is no longer craving.
There is no longer feeling.
There is no longer desire.
There is no longer attachment.
There is no longer clinging.
There is no longer grasping.

Isn't it already perfect??

What is the problem in that specific realm 'neither perception nor non-perception' state that prevent us from enlightenment?
Last edited by DarwidHalim on Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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cooran
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Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: What is wrong with this God Realm??

Postby cooran » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:34 am

Hello DarwidHalim,

I believe that Naivasamjnanasamjnayatana is a mahayana term.

Within Theravada, these are the Thirty Planes of Existence which the Buddha taught.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html

Can you relate your query to one of these?

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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DarwidHalim
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Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: What is wrong with this God Realm??

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:39 am

I am referring to no 31.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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cooran
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Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: What is wrong with this God Realm??

Postby cooran » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:48 am

Hello DarwidHalim, all,

I think the editor makes a good point at the beginning of the article:

''It is pointless to debate whether these realms are real or simply fanciful metaphors that describe the various mind-states we might experience in this lifetime. The real message of this cosmology is this: unless we take steps to break free of the iron grip of kamma, we are doomed to wander aimlessly from one state to another, with true peace and satisfaction forever out of reach. The Buddha's revolutionary discovery came in finding that there is a way to break free: the Noble Eightfold Path, which equips us with precisely the tools we need to escape from this wearisome wandering, once and for all, to a true and unshakeable freedom.''
"The Thirty-one Planes of Existence", edited by John T. Bullitt. Access to Insight, 22 November 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html . Retrieved on 21 December 2011.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: What is wrong with this God Realm??

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:53 am

Hi Cooran,

The point here is not the god realm, but where are we going to end up.

We do meditation diligently. But we still end up in samsara. We think we are already perfect. But there are subtle mistakes we never know and undetected.

We think we follow 8 noble parts correctly. But it is not a guarantee, we will free from samsara.

In Buddhism, they are many meditators do a meditation according to Buddhist teaching. But not all do it perfectly. They do it right, but there is a slight mistake which is undetected by their understanding. There is subtle mistake somewhere out there.

There are records for it. I believe you also know this.

The mistakes becomes very valuable to be learnt.

Isn't it very pity if we think we are right, but not right.

We already in the state of neither perception nor non perception. What else is the mistake?
Last edited by DarwidHalim on Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

Brizzy
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:58 am

Re: What is wrong with this God Realm??

Postby Brizzy » Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:01 am

Ignorance is an intentional act.

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DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
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Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: What is wrong with this God Realm??

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:06 am

I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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rowboat
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Location: Brentwood Bay

Re: What is wrong with this God Realm??

Postby rowboat » Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:10 am

Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:24 am

Thank you. Many good sources there.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

User avatar
rowboat
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Location: Brentwood Bay

Re: Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Postby rowboat » Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:52 am

You are welcome. When you listen to Bhikkhu Bodhi's talk on MN:49 I think you will have some answers to your questions.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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Zom
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Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Postby Zom » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:00 am


Buckwheat
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Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 am
Location: California USA

Re: Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Postby Buckwheat » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:25 am

I'm having a hard time following this thread, so I apologize in advance if I am off the mark. Thanissaro Bhikkhu said in a recorded dhamma talk (I can look for the reference if it becomes an issue) not to worry about what jhana or realm you are in, but to constantly look for stress and disturbance, because as you move through the various levels of concentration and wisdom, only when confronted with that specific subtle stress can it be comprehended. So just sit quietly, listening to experience, looking for the subtle stresses, and then abandon them. I guess this approach requires a bit of faith, but it's good enough to keep me on the cushion, listening, looking, seeking Truth. May we all see it clearly. Bless you all!!

:anjali:
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
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Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:58 am

The point that I want to make is actually this one.

We are trying not to attach. But, it is useless.
We are trying not to cling. But, it is useless.
We are trying not to grasp. But, it is useless.
We are trying not to touch. But, it is useless.
We are so proud we can reach Jhana 4. But, it is useless.

All of them are useless.

Being perfect in detachment, Being perfect in not clinging, Being perfect in not Grasping, Being able to reach Jhana 4, all are good from outside. But inside, they are all useless.

At the end of your day, you just reborn in Samsara, not like what you have expected.

We are trying so hard to perfect all of them, constraint ourselves so hard, but at the end we are hitting the wrong point.

Only if we can use all of that useless achievements to hit the I, all of them becomes meaningful.

Perfecting ourselves in detachment, doesn't mean it remove the I.
Perfecting ourselves in non-clinging, doesn't mean it remove the I.
Perfecting ourselves in non-grasping, doesn't mean it remove the I.
Perfecting ourselves in any negativities we can think off, doesn't mean it remove the I.
Perfecting ourselves in Jhana 4 or Jhana 100000, doesn't mean it remove the I.

Only removing the I, we hit the target - the core of the core of Buddhism.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Spiny O'Norman
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Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:57 am


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DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
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Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:31 am

I really don't know how to answer your question.

So far, I never come accross a book that put all Theravada teaching into a systematic way of training. The teachings are scatter here and there.

You may read a book about karma, but it doesn't mean at the end you know how to link that karma to remove the I.
You may read a book about 4 noble truth, but it doesn't mean at the end you know how to link that 4 noble truth to remove the I, although by right we should be able. In practise, we hardly see that.

It makes me remember the life story of Ajahn Chah. He was a mOnk and has done many meditations. He thought he were in good shape. But, when he met again the girl which he loved long time back, he realized he didn't hit the target. It is finally Ajahn Mun that really show him how to hit the target.

I really have no idea how to suggest you because everything is already there. The problem is how to link all that pieces into a very systematic path.

I can only recommend you this book - The art of disappearing by Ajahn Bhram.

Hopefully, you really know how to link all those scatter teaching to come out with the essence of Buddhism which can help you hit the target directly to the heart.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Postby chownah » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:09 pm


santa100
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Re: Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Postby santa100 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:27 pm


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daverupa
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Re: Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:11 pm


Buckwheat
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Location: California USA

Re: Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Postby Buckwheat » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:15 pm

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

santa100
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Oh Nooo, why I end up here? What's wrong?

Postby santa100 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:22 pm



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