Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Sun May 05, 2013 11:09 pm

Clarence wrote:I keep wondering why you don't bring this up at the vajracakra forum. There are actually people there who have served on a Gaykil or run DC centers. I would love to see their responses.


Maybe because he does not like "power people" and/or "control freaks"? :stirthepot:

PS. How do you know that they do not exist here people who have served on a Gakyil or run DC centers?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Mon May 06, 2013 12:42 am

Dronma wrote:
Clarence wrote:I keep wondering why you don't bring this up at the vajracakra forum. There are actually people there who have served on a Gaykil or run DC centers. I would love to see their responses.


Maybe because he does not like "power people" and/or "control freaks"? :stirthepot:

PS. How do you know that they do not exist here people who have served on a Gakyil or run DC centers?


:namaste:

Dear all and ALL,

I have never had even one thought that anyone at VC is a power person or control freak. Perhaps these terms are entirely from Dronma. Perhaps she is voicing her own projections that have completely nothing to do with me. I have no problem posting on VC, as I feel appropriate, as my many posts attest.

Truth is I like the cheery color scheme here on DW better. That is all. :twothumbsup: Now that that is out of the way, let's talk about power people and control freaks in the DC - :smile: just kidding. There are also no power people or control freaks in the DC. It just appears that way sometimes. :smile: Everything / everyone has no permanent self nature. In 100 years, I am sure that nothing anyone writes, here, or on VC, will be recorded anywhere, or remembered by anybody, and I am content with that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzcZttcpYFQ

The Beatles will go on forever. That said ---

Here is the Master Calander of the DCA, Tsegyalgar East:

http://tsegyalgar.org/theteachings/mastercalendar/

Of the 34 scheduled events, 18 are either Vajra Dance or Yantra Yoga. Only 4 other teaching events are scheduled from the list of secondary practices: one event of Chod, one event of Longsal Saltong Tsalung Practice, and two SMS base events. Please note that this covers a period of eight months and includes Tseygyalgar, Conway MA, and Kundrolling, NYC. Sure Rinpoche is visiting for three weeks, but this is not eight months.

What is wrong with this picture?

This is like serving up cabbage greens and boiled turnips, most of the time, when the garden has 100 different flavorful veggies in it. Personally, I don't eat cabbage greens and boiled turnips. I have always been afraid that "you are what you eat", and that I might wind up as a narcissistic power cabbage or nit-picking control turnip. :smile: True story. (No particular cabbage or turnip in mind, just a general discomfort at the feeling tone of how things were presented.)

Maybe this is only my problem.

Maybe it is time that the DC grows beyond this, serving up some other veggies from the cornucopia menu of 100. Maybe I can learn to stomach cabbage greens and boiled turnips if they are prepared in a tasty new recipe by new chefs. Hmmnnnn - maybe if we add a pinch of awareness curry? Now that's much better.

:smile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ98qac2UIM

:heart:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon May 06, 2013 1:04 am

oldbob wrote:My 2 cents is that everything can be taught on the web. Subjects that are taught more easily through interaction can be taught through group interactive classes. Skype, Google, Go to meeting etc offer this capability.


I support this idea. It would be wonderful to have more explanations of teachings from the SMS instructors through webcasts. Moreover, a DC closed forum (only for members), wherein we could ask questions and receive 100% correct answers from the same approved instructors.

oldbob wrote:My 2 cents is that the "dangers" of yantra yoga are overblown and that anyone who can read, can also read the caveats, cautions, and protections that are necessary and helpful to avoid health problems. I first learned yy at retreats, but then enjoyed many hours of practicing along with video tapes.


Although I have followed a few retreats of Yantra Yoga, if there were not the books and DVDs, surely I would be lost! I am still having some specific questions in certain matters, but these questions could be easily answered through a DC forum or a webcast. Personally, I do not have the luxury to run in many retreats abroad.

oldbob wrote:Once when I was living in a place that did not have a dance mandala, a few people and myself got together and painted a roll up one, and rented space, twice a week, in a local school. One person was experienced and she taught us how to dance, for free.


Vajra Dance is a practice which really needs instructions through personal participation. It also needs special conditions like a large place, a mandala, a group of people for regular training etc.

oldbob wrote:Sure there are many practices that are more easily accomplished through group participation. Chod, Mike Katz's dream yoga workshops, learning the mudras, learning the melodies of the rituals and songs, learning the pronunciation of the Tibetan words in rituals, doing the semzins and rushens, doing the practice of the 6 lokas, celebrating Gana Puja, performing shi tro, kum nye massage, and zer nga, etc all lend themselves to be taught / practiced in a group setting, etc, but all of these could also be taught on-line, in interactive meetings / classes.


The training of most practices requires group participation, at least in the beginning. Or better, the goal of learning is accomplished easier and quicker while practicing with other people, who already have good knowledge of the specific practice. When the learning stage has been accomplished, then there are very few practices which are made exclusively for groups. Usually, the goal of the practice is accomplished through personal, everyday dedication.

oldbob wrote:It would be good if there were a list of approved teachers for each practice that members could email if they have questions. Perhaps the list of SMS teachers is a start. This is published on-line.

http://kunsangar.org/media/cmsmediafile ... ERS%20.pdf


A DC closed forum could bring more benefit to all of us. Since the questions of my Vajra brothers and sisters could answer my own questions as well. So less work for the instructors and more knowledge for everybody! :smile:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon May 06, 2013 1:33 am

oldbob wrote:
Dronma wrote:
Clarence wrote:I keep wondering why you don't bring this up at the vajracakra forum. There are actually people there who have served on a Gaykil or run DC centers. I would love to see their responses.


Maybe because he does not like "power people" and/or "control freaks"? :stirthepot:

PS. How do you know that they do not exist here people who have served on a Gakyil or run DC centers?


:namaste:

Dear all and ALL,

I have never had even one thought that anyone at VC is a power person or control freak. Perhaps these terms are entirely from Dronma. Perhaps she is voicing her own projections that have completely nothing to do with me. I have no problem posting on VC, as I feel appropriate, as my many posts attest.


Of course, you never said anything about Vajracakra's "wanna be powerful people" and/or "control freaks". :smile:
Certainly I admit that this is only my own mind projection, and I take full responsibility of my words!
But I am tired to see appearing here from time to time indirect advertisements for Vajracakra. Everybody, who was here during the "dramatic secession" of a few people, knows what really happened and can decide by him/herself.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon May 06, 2013 8:42 am

We do seem to very much need a closed forum, otherwise such wonderful initiatives as Bob's may well just peter out before most of the DC members hear of them. And soon some changes will be simply necessary. IMO, of course.

Dronma wrote:
oldbob wrote:My 2 cents is that the "dangers" of yantra yoga are overblown and that anyone who can read, can also read the caveats, cautions, and protections that are necessary and helpful to avoid health problems. I first learned yy at retreats, but then enjoyed many hours of practicing along with video tapes.


Although I have followed a few retreats of Yantra Yoga, if there were not the books and DVDs, surely I would be lost! I am still having some specific questions in certain matters, but these questions could be easily answered through a DC forum or a webcast. Personally, I do not have the luxury to run in many retreats abroad.


Well... I've attended quite a few YY retreats, and still manage to screw things up royally every now and then :-) That is not to say that YY retreats are useless, obviously - and the books and the DVDs are very helpful as well - but what is probably most needed here is the possibility of some personal contact with a qualified and experienced YY instructor. Not necessarily in meatspace, though that'd be best, of course. Contacting them online would also work just fine.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Bhusuku » Mon May 06, 2013 5:27 pm

Dronma wrote:a DC closed forum (only for members), wherein we could ask questions and receive 100% correct answers from the same approved instructors.

treehuggingoctopus wrote:We do seem to very much need a closed forum

totally agree with that! I think it's really a pity that the responsible people from DC didn't manage (or didn't want?) to establish an official forum in all these years. I mean, we have regular webcasts since at least 8 years now, but still no place in cyberspace to meet and exchange. I'm sure a DC forum would be of real great benefit for many (if not for all) DC members, and I can see not a single disadvantage in creating such a place.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Clarence » Mon May 06, 2013 6:36 pm

Dronma wrote:
Clarence wrote:I keep wondering why you don't bring this up at the vajracakra forum. There are actually people there who have served on a Gaykil or run DC centers. I would love to see their responses.


Maybe because he does not like "power people" and/or "control freaks"? :stirthepot:

PS. How do you know that they do not exist here people who have served on a Gakyil or run DC centers?


You are right. I don't know if such people exist here. I do know they exist there though. Which, btw, is in no way meant as veiled advertisements for VC. Hardly anything happens on that forum. However, I do think Oldbob would get a lot more interesting responses to his questions there than he does here. Simply because the posters who left were all CNN students and were the most prolific on this board about the subject.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon May 06, 2013 7:36 pm

Bhusuku wrote:totally agree with that! I think it's really a pity that the responsible people from DC didn't manage (or didn't want?) to establish an official forum in all these years. I mean, we have regular webcasts since at least 8 years now, but still no place in cyberspace to meet and exchange. I'm sure a DC forum would be of real great benefit for many (if not for all) DC members, and I can see not a single disadvantage in creating such a place.


There was a kind of simplified forum in the old webcast website, where members could log in with their passwords. Most of the times, people were complaining about technical difficulties there, but rarely they were receiving some reply. Such a forum is almost useless today.
But a well organized forum with Rinpoche's approval, wherein SMS, Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance instructors will be regularly present everyday and answer seriously to practitioners' questions, it could be an extremely useful tool of knowledge for all.
In the contrary, a forum where everybody asks questions and everybody gives answers, it can be the source of more confusion and personal conflicts in between members.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon May 06, 2013 7:50 pm

Dronma wrote:But a well organized forum with Rinpoche's approval, wherein SMS, Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance instructors will be regularly present everyday and answer seriously to practitioners' questions, it could be an extremely useful tool of knowledge for all.
In the contrary, a forum where everybody asks questions and everybody gives answers, it can be the source of more confusion and personal conflicts in between members


Oh I agree wholeheartedly. SMS, YY and VD instructors - as well as those qualified and Rinpoche-approved people who would teach us other secondary practices, Tibetan pronunciation, etc. We could have a medicine sub-forum there, too, Tibetan language and Tibetan culture sections, some space devoted to relavant academic pursuits and a place where we could arrange all the official and personal things that we now deal with via Norbunet.

Norbunet, truth be told, is rather old-fashoned, isn't it? A well-managed forum would be so much more efficient. Hell, it does seem awfully strange that we don't have such a place yet. How come?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Mon May 06, 2013 8:23 pm

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6659&start=20

On this page there is an answer from Malcolm as to why Dzogchen Blog was shut down the first time .
It talks about the strict regulations of the DC in relation to how a site representing DC should look like.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon May 06, 2013 8:26 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Oh I agree wholeheartedly. SMS, YY and VD instructors - as well as those qualified and Rinpoche-approved people who would teach us other secondary practices, Tibetan pronunciation, etc. We could have a medicine sub-forum there, too, Tibetan language and Tibetan culture sections, some space devoted to relavant academic pursuits and a place where we could arrange all the official and personal things that we now deal with via Norbunet.

Norbunet, truth be told, is rather old-fashoned, isn't it? A well-managed forum would be so much more efficient. Hell, it does seem awfully strange that we don't have such a place yet. How come?


Very good ideas, indeed! :twothumbsup:
About Norbunet, it is only a mailing list for announcements. It is useful for what it is, but it cannot serve for teachings or discussions.
Once, when I was new in DC, I posted a question about the Purification of the 6 Lokas in Norbunet with the hope that some experienced practitioner could help me. Loek replied personally to me by explaining why he could not permit my question to be forwarded to Norbunet, and he also tried to clarify my query. He was kind and funny in the way he replied, since my question had to do with the spot of the basic Chakra. :D
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Bhusuku » Mon May 06, 2013 8:38 pm

Dronma wrote:But a well organized forum with Rinpoche's approval, wherein SMS, Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance instructors will be regularly present everyday and answer seriously to practitioners' questions, it could be an extremely useful tool of knowledge for all.
In the contrary, a forum where everybody asks questions and everybody gives answers, it can be the source of more confusion and personal conflicts in between members.


Of course I didn't think the whole idea with an DC forum completely through - all I have are some random ideas. For example, there could be a couple of sub-forums, like treehuggingoctopus already mentioned. I'd also add a few more to that list, like:

- a beginner's forum (i.e., a place where people can ask more general questions that most older students probably were able to answer.)

- forums for SMS, YY & VD where people can ask specific questions, answered by the particular authorized teacher(s).

- a webcast forum (eg, for technical problems or for advices/information on supplementary materials for the current webcast retreat, etc.)

- maybe a forum where people could organize car pooling or find a place to crash during retreats.

...just my 2 cents...
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon May 06, 2013 8:45 pm

alpha wrote:http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6659&start=20

On this page there is an answer from Malcolm as to why Dzogchen Blog was shut down the first time .
It talks about the strict regulations of the DC in relation to how a site representing DC should look like.


Dzogchen Blog does not represent DC.
In the disclaimer of the first page (http://dzogchenworld.ning.com/), we read:


"Dzogchen Blog" is a personal initiative: the views and information presented here are of a personal nature and do not claim to represent the activities of the Dzogchen Community, nor the teachings of Dzogchen. To know more about Dzogchen and the Dzogchen Community please visit the official web sites at links below.

And all the links of the official DC websites are following. So it could serve well as a kind of portal for DC activities.
Sadly, a lot of backstage backstabbing had taken place by certain people there. The famous clan "wanna be powerful" and/or "control freaks" who live among us.... :spy:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby alpha » Mon May 06, 2013 8:56 pm

Dronma wrote:
alpha wrote:http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6659&start=20

On this page there is an answer from Malcolm as to why Dzogchen Blog was shut down the first time .
It talks about the strict regulations of the DC in relation to how a site representing DC should look like.


Dzogchen Blog does not represent DC.
In the disclaimer of the first page (http://dzogchenworld.ning.com/), we read:


"Dzogchen Blog" is a personal initiative: the views and information presented here are of a personal nature and do not claim to represent the activities of the Dzogchen Community, nor the teachings of Dzogchen. To know more about Dzogchen and the Dzogchen Community please visit the official web sites at links below.

And all the links of the official DC websites are following. So it could serve well as a kind of portal for DC activities.
Sadly, a lot of backstage backstabbing had taken place by certain people there. The famous clan "wanna be powerful" and/or "control freaks" who live among us.... :spy:


I didnt say dzogchen blog was a DC site or representing DC.

I only used the Dzogchen Blog as an example to highlight the fact that any site representing DC needs to abide by certain regulations and be vetted b y the ones who are running that side of the DC.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon May 06, 2013 9:18 pm

alpha wrote:I didnt say dzogchen blog was a DC site or representing DC.

I only used the Dzogchen Blog as an example to highlight the fact that any site representing DC needs to abide by certain regulations and be vetted b y the ones who are running that side of the DC.


Alpha, I did not say that you said anything.
The fact is that the discussion you presented here is about the old version of "Dzogchen World".
Later, "Dzogchen Blog" appeared with the disclaimer which clarifies everything.
That new form of DB is now staying inactive because of the backstage backstabbing I already mentioned! :stirthepot:
Moreover, where are those "fairly rigid guidelines about what an official DC website has to be" published?
Nobody mentions..... Why???
Do they exist? Who have them made up? Have they been approved by Rinpoche himself?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Bhusuku » Mon May 06, 2013 9:32 pm

Dronma wrote:Dzogchen Blog does not represent DC.

I think that exactly was the point. They just don't want unofficial DC websites out there. What I don't get is, why can't there be an official DC forum? Created, managed and maintained by DC members (maybe some folks from the blue gakyils?) who, of course, also take care that everything is within the IPC regulations. But somehow I have the feeling that it's one of the IPC's regulations that there must be no forum.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Bhusuku » Mon May 06, 2013 9:38 pm

Dronma wrote:Moreover, where are those "fairly rigid guidelines about what an official DC website has to be" published?
Nobody mentions..... Why???
Do they exist? Who have them made up? Have they been approved by Rinpoche himself? [/color]


Can't tell you if they really exist, because I never saw them. However, in the "Principles and Guidelines for Practitioners and Gakyil Members" book it says: "Within the IPC (International Publications Committee) there is an Internet Committe which should act as a point of reference for coordinating all questions regarding the official websites of the DC and also for checking the private websites which are presenting themselves as linked to Rinpoche's teachings and the DC."

My edition of this book is from 2001, and back then Cheh Goh, Loek Jehee, Maurizio Mingotti and Grisha Mokhin were the members of this Internet Committee. But I don't know who's currently in charge.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon May 06, 2013 9:47 pm

Bhusuku wrote:I think that exactly was the point. They just don't want unofficial DC websites out there. What I don't get is, why can't there be an official DC forum? Created, managed and maintained by DC members (maybe some folks from the blue gakyils?) who, of course, also take care that everything is within the IPC regulations. But somehow I have the feeling that it's one of the IPC's regulations that there must be no forum.


Who are "they"? They do not have names?
Where are those guidelines? Can't we read them and so have knowledge of the restrictions?
Too many questions..... :shrug:
I am sorry, but personally I do not eat what is ready served without knowing what is included in the recipe.....
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Mon May 06, 2013 10:02 pm

Bhusuku wrote:Can't tell you if they really exist, because I never saw them. However, in the "Principles and Guidelines for Practitioners and Gakyil Members" book it says: "Within the IPC (International Publications Committee) there is an Internet Committe which should act as a point of reference for coordinating all questions regarding the official websites of the DC and also for checking the private websites which are presenting themselves as linked to Rinpoche's teachings and the DC."

My edition of this book is from 2001, and back then Cheh Goh, Loek Jehee, Maurizio Mingotti and Grisha Mokhin were the members of this Internet Committee. But I don't know who's currently in charge.


Bhusuku, thank you for the information.
But this only declares generally the existence of an Internet Committe.
And as far as I know, none of the above 4 mentioned people, who were in charge back in 2001, took part in the backstage backstabbing against DB.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Mon May 06, 2013 10:12 pm

Dronma wrote:
Bhusuku wrote:I think that exactly was the point. They just don't want unofficial DC websites out there. What I don't get is, why can't there be an official DC forum? Created, managed and maintained by DC members (maybe some folks from the blue gakyils?) who, of course, also take care that everything is within the IPC regulations. But somehow I have the feeling that it's one of the IPC's regulations that there must be no forum.


Who are "they"? They do not have names?
Where are those guidelines? Can't we read them and so have knowledge of the restrictions?


Indeed.
We seem to be having quite an issue with transparency here.
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