Soto views on rebirth?

Matylda
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Soto views on rebirth?

Postby Matylda » Mon May 06, 2013 12:20 pm


Matylda
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Re: Rinzai views on rebirth?

Postby Matylda » Mon May 06, 2013 12:22 pm


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Re: Rinzai views on rebirth?

Postby DGA » Mon May 06, 2013 12:34 pm

Gudo Wafu Nishijima seems to reject the teaching of rebirth as do certain of his students.

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Re: Rinzai views on rebirth?

Postby Wayfarer » Mon May 06, 2013 12:47 pm

I've never noticed Nishijima make that statement, and have thoroughly read To Meet the Real Dragon, which is his main book.

As I said in my first response 'rebirth is happening every single moment. Every single moment of life is the wheel of birth and death.' That is a way of understanding it that doesn't deny the idea of re-birth but it also doesn't romanticize it. The middle path is neither that 'there is an existing soul that goes from life' (eternalism) nor that the individual life totally ceases at physical death (nihilism).

If that sounds hard to understand, it's because it is.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Rinzai views on rebirth?

Postby DGA » Mon May 06, 2013 1:34 pm

Hi jeeprs,

That's why I said he "seems to" take that position. There are many who attribute such a position to him, or take that position themselves by his authority.

By contrast, the position you describe seems much more nuanced and, to my mind, interesting. I'm reminded of the Tendai doctrine of "ichinen sanzen." Three thousand realms in one moment...

:namaste:

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Re: Rinzai views on rebirth?

Postby Luke » Mon May 06, 2013 1:40 pm


Matylda
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Re: Rinzai views on rebirth?

Postby Matylda » Mon May 06, 2013 2:03 pm


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Re: Rinzai views on rebirth?

Postby Matylda » Mon May 06, 2013 2:07 pm


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Re: Soto views on rebirth?

Postby Astus » Mon May 06, 2013 3:47 pm

"In Zen we talk about rebirth in this lifetime. ... Karma is a word that expresses the process of how the way you live in this moment affects what happens in the next moment, or the next year, or the next decade."





"Heaven is a human supposition and Hell is also a human supposition. But when our autonomic nervous system is balanced, it is just Heaven, and when our autonomic nervous system is not balanced, it is just Hell."
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Re: Soto views on rebirth?

Postby Wayfarer » Mon May 06, 2013 11:10 pm

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Soto views on rebirth?

Postby shel » Tue May 07, 2013 5:44 am


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Re: Soto views on rebirth?

Postby Wayfarer » Tue May 07, 2013 5:47 am

How is it 'hypocritical' to declare something is 'an open question'? If it's an open question, it means I am open to various ideas on it. I am not, however, open to the idea that the human individual is a solely material phenomenon, and that the individual life comprises only the lifespan of the physical organism. I do reject that view, which is categorised in Buddhist philosophy as ucchedavada, or nihilistic, so if you regard rejection of that as 'hypocritical', then I guess I'll just have to deal with it.

So - you're forgiven. :smile:
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Soto views on rebirth?

Postby shel » Tue May 07, 2013 5:52 am

Indeed you deal with it quite a lot from what I've seen. Not that that's a bad thing. :smile: Grasping, or not being open, is what we deal with...

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Re: Soto views on rebirth?

Postby Matylda » Wed May 08, 2013 11:45 am


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Re: Soto views on rebirth?

Postby Astus » Wed May 08, 2013 1:36 pm

Matylda,

People use the teaching of momentary rebirth as an exchange for life to life rebirth about what they are at least agnostic. You can read Brad Warner's two articles where he is explicit about his position.

"When people questioned Nishijima about this during talks, he always explained that these references were meant metaphorically, not literally."

"Rebirth is a myth that some Buddhists believe in. It might be loosely based on fact. But it might just be a fantasy."
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



Matylda
Posts: 554
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Re: Soto views on rebirth?

Postby Matylda » Wed May 08, 2013 9:55 pm


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Re: Soto views on rebirth?

Postby kirtu » Wed May 08, 2013 11:03 pm

really the main declaration that some/many Soto teachers don't believe in rebirth comes from Ven. Indrajala. He noted this during his studies in Japan. All my Zen teachers (Westerners) held rebirth but didn't explicitly teach it (possibly the two Zen Catholic nuns I studied with did not accept rebirth but I don't know - as it turns out the Zen Catholic people were Catholic with them but they were always Buddhist with me). None of my Zen teachers told people what to think. As always they were concerned with liberation in that moment. But I know for a fact that my Kwan Um teacher and Daido Roshi definitely accepted traditional rebirth. The job of a Zen teacher is to get you to enlightenment and they will overturn whatever apple carts they feel they need to - even seemingly decrying traditional teachings in some interactions. Zen is not "belief oriented" in the sense that this question may have been posed in. This can be difficult for people to understand. But it's sort of like when Trungpa Rinpoche asked a person why they wanted to attain enlightenment? After all, they might find it boring.

Kirt


"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Soto views on rebirth?

Postby Simon E. » Thu May 09, 2013 2:46 pm

" My heart's in the Highlands
my heart is not here.
My heart's in the Highlands
chasing the deer."

Robert V.C. Burns.

Matylda
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Re: Soto views on rebirth?

Postby Matylda » Fri May 10, 2013 1:55 pm


Simon E.
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Re: Soto views on rebirth?

Postby Simon E. » Fri May 10, 2013 2:07 pm

I know little of Zen, whether Soto or Rinzai but there is debate within the Theravada which I am aware of about the "Three Lifetimes " model and the " One Lifetime" model. The Three Lifetimes are of course the last life, this life, and the next life. The One Lifetime model does not necessarily deny the possibility of the three lifetimes, but says that they are conjectural, and that all Dharma can be found in the present lifetime.
I do not know if the discussion happens in Zen in the same kind of terms but from what I have read of Brad Warner's writings he may hold a similar view..whether his view is typical of modern Soto I also don't know but he has a large following, including in Japan.
" My heart's in the Highlands
my heart is not here.
My heart's in the Highlands
chasing the deer."

Robert V.C. Burns.


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