May wrathful practice be performed?

[swampflower]

If one is practicing Chod, may one also perform wrathful practices?

[conebeckham]

What do you mean by "wrathful practices?"

Do you mean "perform sadhana of wrathful yidams?" Or do you mean something else...some sort of "activity?"

[swampflower]

What do you mean by "wrathful practices?"

Do you mean "perform sadhana of wrathful yidams?" Or do you mean something else...some sort of "activity?"

Oh, yes, I mean sadhana of wrathful yidams. Ha, ha, no activity here!
I have taken on Daily Dorje Drolo Practice and now I have been accepted to have Chod transmission and teachings. I am concerned that I may need to give up Dorje Drolo to practice Chod properly but this does not feel correct. I will of course ask the Lama, in the mean time I was hoping for input to calm my mind and remove obstructions so I may be properly prepared for transmission and practice.

[conebeckham]

There's no contradiction.

In Kagyu three year retreats, chod is practiced daily. Dorje Drollo is also practiced as a main practice.
And of course daily protector practices, Kilaya practice......there are "wrathful" practices that are practiced daily.

[Pero]

Hm I've heard that when practicing Chod one shouldn't do wrathful practices. They're kind of opposites - in Chod you offer your body to all, in wrathful practice you destroy negativity... Though in retrospect I'm not 100% sure how it was meant. Maybe not to do one right after the other, like in the same session.

[Dharmaswede]

Depending on how you do it, and the sadhana in particular, Chöd itself can be extremely wrathful. For instance, it may involve transforming into the extremely wrathful yidam Troma Nagmo. Of course, you don't mix the sadhanas (such as in the case if you are doing a yidam practice separate from the Chöd) but do them in a sequence. In which order you should perform the sadhanas may play a role though.

I am not advising you on your practice, just offering some general perspectives. Sounds like you need help organizing your daily practice. Ask your lama, or possibly a senior student that you trust in the Sangha.

Best Wishes,

Jens

[Josef]

What do you mean by "wrathful practices?"

Do you mean "perform sadhana of wrathful yidams?" Or do you mean something else...some sort of "activity?"

Oh, yes, I mean sadhana of wrathful yidams. Ha, ha, no activity here!
I have taken on Daily Dorje Drolo Practice and now I have been accepted to have Chod transmission and teachings. I am concerned that I may need to give up Dorje Drolo to practice Chod properly but this does not feel correct. I will of course ask the Lama, in the mean time I was hoping for input to calm my mind and remove obstructions so I may be properly prepared for transmission and practice.

Hi Swamp,
You can definitely do both.
Ask Rinpoche, I'm sure he can provide you with some insight.

[swampflower]

Yes, thanks to all!
As my Yidam Deity is a Wrathful manifestation of Guru Rinpoche Padmasambhava my Lama has advised for me to continue this practice.
I will perform Yidam Deity practice first in the morning, then move on to my Chod practice.

[JinpaRangdrol]

I think it's important to note a couple of things regarding Chod and wrathful practice. On the one hand, the wrathful expulsion of demons, obstructors, etc. is the antithesis of Chod. For that reason, you [generally] never see a Geg Tor in a Chod Tsog (the Torma for the obstructors). It's definitely the "feed, not fight" mentality.
On the other hand, some Chod sadhanas actually include extremely wrathful activity. The opening Wangdu Zilnon (Overwhelming with Majestic Splendour) section of many Terma Chod sadhanas utilizes all four of the Four Thrinley, including the annihilation. Sometimes this is indicated with a HUNG HUNG HUNG PHAT!
Take, for instance, the Chod Cham (dance) in the Khando Kegyang, Jigme Lingpa's Chod. In it, the practitioner wrathfully emanates and basically spars with a demon before restraining it and pitching a tent on it. It also advocates for some wrathful processes of exterminating hard-to-manage frightful appearances/demons, if the LuJin alone does not subdue them.

[JinpaRangdrol]

This question has been on my mind a lot in the past couple of weeks. Just found this quote from "Machig's complete explanation" that quite aptly answers the question of wrathful practice.
"Do not beat down, drive out, or torture other beings by instigating harm on hostile, nonhuman sentient beings through charmed substances (rdzas thun), wrathful mantras, or doing wrathful practice. If you beat them down and drive them out, you contradict me and have lost the way of Chöd. On the other hand, if my followers do not tame these hostile demons that harm other sentient beings, it also runs contrary to me. Therefore, the method to tame demons is to give up your cherishing fixation on the body and give your life and limb to those demons without hesitation. That is the way to tame the demons." (Harding, 207).

[Adamantine]

This question has been on my mind a lot in the past couple of weeks. Just found this quote from "Machig's complete explanation" that quite aptly answers the question of wrathful practice.
"Do not beat down, drive out, or torture other beings by instigating harm on hostile, nonhuman sentient beings through charmed substances (rdzas thun), wrathful mantras, or doing wrathful practice. If you beat them down and drive them out, you contradict me and have lost the way of Chöd. On the other hand, if my followers do not tame these hostile demons that harm other sentient beings, it also runs contrary to me. Therefore, the method to tame demons is to give up your cherishing fixation on the body and give your life and limb to those demons without hesitation. That is the way to tame the demons." (Harding, 207).

It really has to do with one's lineage, and what the Guru instructs. . .

[Kilaya]

Does Throma Nagmo have any separate sadhana of her own apart from the Chöd ritual?

[Malcolm]

Does Throma Nagmo have any separate sadhana of her own apart from the Chöd ritual?

Yes. Many.

N

[Kilaya]

Does Throma Nagmo have any separate sadhana of her own apart from the Chöd ritual?

Yes. Many.

N

Is her specific activity similar to that of Sengdongma?

[JinpaRangdrol]

Does Throma Nagmo have any separate sadhana of her own apart from the Chöd ritual?

Yes. Many.

N

Is her specific activity similar to that of Sengdongma?

Similar, sure... but it sort of depends on whether you're referring to the Nyingma Sengdongma or the Sarma Sengdongma from the Chakrasamvara Tantra.

[Malcolm]

Nyingma Sengdongma or the Sarma Sengdongma from the Chakrasamvara Tantra.

They are the same. They both use the 14 syllable mantra. The sole difference is whether it is kama or terma. Nyingma Simhamukha is all terma. Kama Simhamukha comes from Bari Lotsawa through Sakya.

N

[Malcolm]

Does Throma Nagmo have any separate sadhana of her own apart from the Chöd ritual?

Yes. Many.

N

Is her specific activity similar to that of Sengdongma?

The kama origin of Krodhakali is the mahāsiddha Virupa who received the sadhana for Krodhakali in Oddiyāna. This sadhana was introduced to Tibet by Padampha Sangye.

The remaining Krodhakali practices are all terma, beginning with the Krodhakali practice of Nyang Ral Nyima Ozer.

[Kilaya]

I meant that - apart from the obvious goal of attaining realization - Simhamukha's sadhana is connected with averting negative forces and black magic. Does the same go for Throma Nagmo, or is there any other specific activity she is related with?

[Yudron]

I meant that - apart from the obvious goal of attaining realization - Simhamukha's sadhana is connected with averting negative forces and black magic. Does the same go for Throma Nagmo, or is there any other specific activity she is related with?

The focus of the most widely practiced Throma cycle today--the Dudjom Lingpa's Throma Nagmo--is the realization of sherab, transcendent knowingness. Great lamas when teaching the public in this cycle, may emphasize the Indian roots of Vajravarahi, the feminine principle in general, the chod, Dzogchen, or the unity of all these.

The cycle, however, contains many different activity practices, e.g. benefiting the dead, healing, wrathful, and weather controlling.