Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby HePo » Sat May 04, 2013 11:46 am

by Jikan » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:26 pm

The OBC (with major centers at Shasta Abbey & Throssel Hole and elsewhere) has come up tangentially and indirectly in many discussions at DW. So far, this has only produced diffuse and disconnected claims, occasional contradictions, and accusations of misrepresentation. None of that is productive.


Nothing has changed!
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby pueraeternus » Sat May 04, 2013 1:39 pm

Sara mentioned before that though not an ordained monastic, she is an experienced layperson in the OBC. Being that karma is a basic teaching in any Buddhist school, the official teaching on this must have been delivered many times, so it's kinda odd that she said she don't know what the "official policy on that" is.

Anyway.
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat May 04, 2013 3:04 pm

As it says in the Shushogi:
Avoid the company of those who are deluded and ignorant with regard to the Truth of karmic consequence...

http://obcon.org/dharma/buddhism/shushogi/
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Fruitzilla » Sat May 04, 2013 7:42 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:As it says in the Shushogi:
Avoid the company of those who are deluded and ignorant with regard to the Truth of karmic consequence...

http://obcon.org/dharma/buddhism/shushogi/


As, according to scripture, only a fully realized being has dispelled delusion and ignorance about the Truth of karmic consequence your course of action should be obvious now...
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby dharmagoat » Sat May 04, 2013 11:34 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:As it says in the Shushogi:
Avoid the company of those who are deluded and ignorant with regard to the Truth of karmic consequence...

Do online forums count as company?
May all beings be happy
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Shii » Sun May 05, 2013 6:32 am

Wow. Some of the comments on this board are just plain rude and small/narrow minded. Really, is it really truly impossible that anyone has ever had past lives and visions come up while training deeply? I think not. It does not really matter who has had these things happen (and it matters less about that person's credentials)? They are able to happen to us all. The reason there is so much hullabaloo over this (and many other topics) is because some people, who know who they are, are too much in there heads. They will never get it when they are so much in there heads and being so scholarly about it. That's just not how it works and if they want to find something truly profound and meaningful I suggest they go sit down and do some actual training and attempt, for once in there lives, not to over think it (which will be the hardest thing they have ever done).
“It is easy to believe we are each waves and forget we are also the ocean.”
― Jon J. Muth
“Consider your own place in the universal oneness of which we are all a part, from which we all arise, and to which we all return.”
― David Fontana
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Jikan » Sun May 05, 2013 12:45 pm

Shii wrote:Wow. Some of the comments on this board are just plain rude and small/narrow minded. Really, is it really truly impossible that anyone has ever had past lives and visions come up while training deeply? I think not.


I don't think anyone who understands traditional Buddhism would disagree with this. Rebirth is a teaching of the Buddha. Some yogins have memories of previous lives. The difference is in how (and whether) people talk about these or the past lives of others.

some people, who know who they are, are too much in there heads. They will never get it when they are so much in there heads and being so scholarly about it. That's just not how it works and if they want to find something truly profound and meaningful I suggest they go sit down and do some actual training and attempt, for once in there lives, not to over think it (which will be the hardest thing they have ever done).


Someone in this thread made an interesting comment in regard to this sort of speculation on the training of others:

just plain rude and small/narrow minded


:namaste:
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Jikan » Sun May 05, 2013 12:47 pm

HePo wrote:
by Jikan » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:26 pm

The OBC (with major centers at Shasta Abbey & Throssel Hole and elsewhere) has come up tangentially and indirectly in many discussions at DW. So far, this has only produced diffuse and disconnected claims, occasional contradictions, and accusations of misrepresentation. None of that is productive.


Nothing has changed!


True story. Much hot emotion, not much real knowledge. It's unfortunate, because there's so much to be learned from this topic.
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun May 05, 2013 4:57 pm

Shii wrote:some people, who know who they are, are too much in there heads.

I don't know who I am. Do you?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 05, 2013 5:05 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:As it says in the Shushogi:
Avoid the company of those who are deluded and ignorant with regard to the Truth of karmic consequence...

http://obcon.org/dharma/buddhism/shushogi/
I think you will find this is in regards to people that do not believe that actions bring consequences. Sara H has made no such claim. Their understanding of the workings of karma according to the Buddha is what is being qusetioned, not if they believe in karmic consequence (which, quite clearly, they do).
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Jikan » Sun May 05, 2013 7:19 pm

I had a moment today and did a bit of research online. I wanted to find out (since it hasn't come up in this thread) what contemporary Zen teachers outside the OBC and not named Kyogen Carlson actually think of the OBC today. It seems to me that if a Soto Zen teacher is willing to send his or her students to practice at North Cascades or Shasta Abbey, then that tells us something about how this school is regarded.

As it happens, I found out that two of the internet's most prominent Soto Zen teachers are divided on this issue--strongly. Here is one post in one thread on this topic:

http://www.zenforuminternational.org/vi ... 160#p99995

It seems that J. Cohen and N. Chowaney disagree directly, with Cohen citing discussions from the now-familiar-to-all OBC Connect site as evidence in his negative assessment of the OBC. By contrast, Nonin endorses the OBC (here and in another thread in the same forum), claiming to send his own students there to train.

What does this add up to? I don't claim to know.
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby shel » Sun May 05, 2013 11:22 pm

Jikan wrote:I had a moment today and did a bit of research online. I wanted to find out (since it hasn't come up in this thread) what contemporary Zen teachers outside the OBC and not named Kyogen Carlson actually think of the OBC today. It seems to me that if a Soto Zen teacher is willing to send his or her students to practice at North Cascades or Shasta Abbey, then that tells us something about how this school is regarded.

As it happens, I found out that two of the internet's most prominent Soto Zen teachers are divided on this issue--strongly. Here is one post in one thread on this topic:

http://www.zenforuminternational.org/vi ... 160#p99995

It seems that J. Cohen and N. Chowaney disagree directly, with Cohen citing discussions from the now-familiar-to-all OBC Connect site as evidence in his negative assessment of the OBC. By contrast, Nonin endorses the OBC (here and in another thread in the same forum), claiming to send his own students there to train.

What does this add up to? I don't claim to know.


Apparently it adds up to Cohen and Chowaney pursuing their own agendas, simply, neither of which may have anything much to do with Zen practice.

Jundo wishes to promote his online Zen training brand. One method to build a brand is to distinguish it from what it's not, hence the monastic poo-pooing.

Nonin's experience is:
Every Zen Buddhist practice place has former disgruntled members. I, however, have learned not to take the views of disgruntled former members seriously.


It's sad that he always experiences disgruntled members, though knowing him a bit that is not surprising. It is also sad that he dismisses all criticism out of hand.

In the same post from your link Nonin also writes:
Shasta Abbey is one of the best places for [Soto Zen] priest training in the West.


And there you have it, the best in the West, such as it is.
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby floating_abu » Mon May 06, 2013 2:54 pm

Jikan wrote:
HePo wrote:
by Jikan » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:26 pm

The OBC (with major centers at Shasta Abbey & Throssel Hole and elsewhere) has come up tangentially and indirectly in many discussions at DW. So far, this has only produced diffuse and disconnected claims, occasional contradictions, and accusations of misrepresentation. None of that is productive.


Nothing has changed!


True story. Much hot emotion, not much real knowledge. It's unfortunate, because there's so much to be learned from this topic.


Jikan

I have learned, through hard experience now, that this is true of most of online fora. And that there are personalities on the internet world which have no problems with lying, attacking and stalking. It is a sad lesson, and I would not take what you read with much weight anymore.

OK Including this one :)

Au revoir, merci!

Abu

PS I would agree with shel that what you call preeminent teachers is hardly reflective of Zen practice at all. This is an online virtual world, the ones here are just a handful I suspect of genuinely good teachers in this world. Best wishes to all my fellow practitioners and students.

PPS Shel - just because you didn't find them online, doesn't make they don't exist. I have seen enough of what might be called 'whoah' to not doubt that anything is really possible....
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby shel » Mon May 06, 2013 5:52 pm

floating_abu wrote:I have seen enough of what might be called 'whoah' to not doubt that anything is really possible....


I've seen in myself the desire for "whoah." Now, when I see that desire I think "whoa." :tongue:
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Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon May 13, 2013 11:11 pm

Sara H wrote:One person's karma doesn't go in it's entirety to one other person. (reincarnation)

It can be and often is split up into many different aspects and sent to many different beings. (rebirth)

For instance, you might get the karma of somebody who got angry and drunk and died in a bar fight.

However somebody else might get the karma from the same person of when they were abused as a child.

Somebody else might get the karma of that person's time in the military, or a specific battle.

It's not all bundled into one person like you are suggesting.

I got a copy of "The Book of Life" by Kennett and MacPhillamy from my library, and it appears that the OBC does in fact teach something like this.
Here is a quotation from p.5-6:
Nor is just one being likely to result from the death of a
previous being. An unconverted carnal lust may be reborn in
animal form, an unresolved confusion at the time of death
may be reborn in a muddle-headed human and a secret and
hidden evil act may cause the birth of a fixed or wandering
ghost, just to give a few examples. Thus the death of one
human could result in the rebirth of an animal, a human and
a ghost all out of the unpurified part of that human’s karma
which will then become purified in its own way to become a
beautiful part of the Buddha Mind. Such unpurified karma
becomes a karmic debt which the new-born creature
inherits.

Thus Buddhism says with absolute truth that that
which is reborn is not the same soul or spirit as that which died nor
is it different from it. No being keeps his soul or spirit
intact at death unless he has purified every
karmic jangle within that soul or spirit from the time that it was
part of the original Buddha Nature before the universe began
to the present. At the time of the death of such a being his or her spirit returns in its
entirety to the Buddha Mind, for it is
indeed the whole of that Buddha Nature, and loses its individuality
therein leaving nothing whatsoever to be reborn.
Thus, the Zen Master can say with truth that enlightened action leaves
behind it no speck of dust and the fully enlightened man is truly free.

Very occasionally a person may be the inheritor of all
of the karma from one particular previous existence and it
may seem to him that he has inherited the equivalent of a
whole previous personality. This is the main cause of the
belief in reincarnation, however one should know that however
much karma a person may inherit from one place, he
still will not inherit an individual soul since that which was
purified in the former being will have returned to the Cosmic
Buddha.

A slightly revised version of the above can be found beginning on p. 27 of this:
http://www.shastaabbey.org/pdf/IntroSRM.pdf

A similar explanation by MacPhillamy can be found beginning on p.91 of this:
http://www.shastaabbey.org/pdf/bookBfw.pdf
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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