Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sat May 04, 2013 1:27 am

For pawel,

Of course it is absurd to have duplicate names of the same thing.

Since the time of death is uncertain, I posted this list, as soon as I received it, without cleaning it up, so as to give a head start to those who might find it useful and valuable.

If you are a scholar, please consolidate the list, add the Wylie and send by PM or post. It is published as a "work in progress."

What the list shows is what Teachings and practices are available to you, if you are a member of the DC, and have the proper transmission and permissions.

Please remember that all of these Teachings and practices are included in the DC Media Archive in audio, audio video, and / or transcript form.

If Rinpoche will allow equal access to an indexed, and member accessible, Media Archive, and Transmission, and permissions, by dream / vision, then he will go on Teaching these precious subjects and practices, to thousands and thousands of future students, and perhaps for forever.

The huge membership will allow all the Gars and Lings to survive and also pay for all of the professional services at SSI.

This explains the significance of this list of secondary practices, and why there are absurd duplicate listings. May it be helpful to you and others.

ob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Sat May 04, 2013 2:21 am

oldbob wrote::namaste:

Hi Dronma all and All,

My 2 cents is that all practices are secondary, except Guru Yoga. My 2 cents is that any practice / activity, done with Awareness is Dzogchen, and any practice / activity, done without Awareness is not. I think the Tibetans call this "ordinary mind," or, "as it is," or, "the thing itself," "or "one taste," or, "the one point that explains all," but I am not a scholar. I am certain the scholars on the Board can answer your question better than I can, as I have only my poor memory of what my Teachers have said, to go on.

Best, ob


My understanding is that Tregchöd, Togal and Yangti are the main trunk of Dzogchen.
By practicing them we discover and we develop further the real state of Guru Yoga. Maybe Rinpoche could enlighten us more about this.
I agree with what you are saying about awareness. :smile:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oberon_rex » Sat May 04, 2013 4:29 am

Tregchog, Togal and Yangti are the three main practice of the Dzogchen Upadesha.
They are nothing more or less than practices of Guru Yoga in the same way that the Four Yogas of the Semde
and the Four Das of the Longde are practices of Guru Yoga.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat May 04, 2013 5:14 am

Hello, oldbob 007!!!! :spy:
:rolling:

About the list of the secondary practices now. Are the practices of Tregchöd, Togal and Yangti considered as secondary?
I like the new idea that you present today.


Referencing the base, path and result trichotomy, I've seen Malcolm refer to Tregchö as equivalent to the base, Thögal as the path, and result being one of the few forms of death. So I'd say they're a little more integral to the teaching than the other secondary practices, depends on the individual though I'm sure.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Sat May 04, 2013 8:47 am

oberon_rex wrote:Tregchog, Togal and Yangti are the three main practice of the Dzogchen Upadesha.
They are nothing more or less than practices of Guru Yoga in the same way that the Four Yogas of the Semde
and the Four Das of the Longde are practices of Guru Yoga.


It is quite confusing to use Guru Yoga like that, better use "resting in the natural state" I think. I understand that you are responding to oldbob's statement that all practices except Guru Yoga are secondary and I agree with you that he is wrong.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Sat May 04, 2013 1:25 pm

Commit not a single unwholesome action,
Cultivate a wealth of virtue,
To completely tame this mind of ours—
This is the teaching of the buddhas.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sat May 04, 2013 1:40 pm

heart wrote:
oberon_rex wrote:Tregchog, Togal and Yangti are the three main practice of the Dzogchen Upadesha.
They are nothing more or less than practices of Guru Yoga in the same way that the Four Yogas of the Semde
and the Four Das of the Longde are practices of Guru Yoga.


It is quite confusing to use Guru Yoga like that, better use "resting in the natural state" I think. I understand that you are responding to oldbob's statement that all practices except Guru Yoga are secondary and I agree with you that he is wrong.

/magnus


Hi Magnus all and ALL,

Yes, of course it is confusing to use Guru Yoga like this and you are exactly correct to say it is better to use, "resting in the natural state." But this confusing usage is directly from ChNNR, and is specific to him. For example the Nyingmapas do not use "Guru Yoga" in this way. Guru Yoga in the Nyingmapa usage has to do specifically with visualizing Guru Rinpoche and taking the three lights. ChNNR has said over and over again, that "Guru Yoga" is the primary practice. This is his usage. I am sure that no one is saying that he is wrong, at least not here in this thread. Sorry Magnus, I was quoting ChNNR, and assumed that on this thread, that everyone would understand that.

Oberon is exactly correct in that the 3 practices of the Dzogchen Upadesha, the 4 yogas of the Semde and the 4 Das of the Longde are practices of "Guru Yoga" in the sense that they help you develop confidence in, and continue in, "resting in the natural state," but this is not ChNNRs useage. ChNNR's useage is equating "Guru Yoga" with "resting in the natural state." It appears confusing, but it is not if you consider this last point.

So in ChNNR's useage, if you do ANY practice or activity, with "awareness of resting in the natural state" it is Guru Yoga, and if you do not have this awareness, it is not. This is why he speaks of Guru Yoga as being the primary practice.

As a Dzogchen practitioner, I have the freedom and opportunity to apply ANY of the secondary practices (not just Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance) in my spiritual practice, as I feel appropriate, as supported by transmission and permissions. For me this works very well. Others like to be directed in practice by the set practices and instructions in the SMS, and for them, this path works very well. Others like to do only Yantra Yoga and /or Vajra Dance, (the course offerings of the power people) and for them this works very well. This is why Lord Buddha taught the 84,000 (means many) different practices so that there would be something for everyone. Thank you Lord Buddha and ChNNR. :bow: :bow: :bow:

This is why, for me, having a library of practices to draw from, is very beneficial to my practice, compared to being limited to a set course of practice. Hence the huge value of a list of the secondary practices, as taught by ChNNR, supported by an index, with capsule summaries, and hyper-links to the actual Teachings, in audio, audio / video and transcript form, in the "Media Archives." Of course there needs to be the support of transmission and the permissions.

Having this huge library of practices to draw from, allows me to "work with circumstances," applying different practices, as appropriate. Perhaps we need a Dewy Decimal (organizing index) system for the secondary practices so that we can group them according to the appropriate application and circumstance. Any scholars interested in doing this?

Muni, as always, goes to the heart of the matter, beyond any questions what-so-ever.

Hope this helps.

:heart:

ob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Sat May 04, 2013 3:30 pm

Hi oldbob,

Yes, you are quite right, this is how ChNNR use the word Guru Yoga. However since there are people here that don't take teachings from him it might be a good idea to communicate in a style that everyone understands.

/magnus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Sat May 04, 2013 5:35 pm

oldbob wrote:This is why, for me, having a library of practices to draw from, is very beneficial to my practice, compared to being limited to a set course of practice. Hence the huge value of a list of the secondary practices, as taught by ChNNR, supported by an index, with capsule summaries, and hyper-links to the actual Teachings, in audio, audio / video and transcript form, in the "Media Archives." Of course there needs to be the support of transmission and the permissions.


About the list of practices, which I also find quite interesting to exist, I'd suggest to change the title in "Practice List of the Dzogchen Community" for avoiding several misunderstandings, especially from new people. For practitioners who follow ChNN Rinpoche's teachings for some time, it is very clear what is essential and what is secondary in Dzogchen practice.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sat May 04, 2013 8:50 pm

:good: :good:

Thank you Rinpoche for being the wonderful wish fulfilling jewel of the Teachings.

:smile:

ob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Sat May 04, 2013 10:07 pm

oldbob wrote:The point of publishing the list is that this is the practice heart of the Dzogchen Community. Guru Yoga is the primary practice and infuses all other practices / activities, 24/7. The DC is more than Yantra Yoga and Vajra Dance, yet 90 percent of the course offerings has been just these two subjects. (Maybe this is why so few go to non-Rinpoche retreats at the Gars.) Maybe more people would attend retreats if these other secondary practices were taught as well.

Maybe the courses are mostly YY and VD because it's a lot easier to learn this in person where you can ask questions and be corrected by the instructor . Whereas you can easily learn stuff like Mandarava and Tara from a book and DVD. And if you do something wrong there won't be health consequences from improper practice. And, I imagine for some people money is also an issue. I don't live that near to any DC center so why would I go to a course with all the expenses (course + travel + accomodation + food = lots of money) if I can easily learn it from a book and DVD (~10 times less than combined cost of course)? This of course doesn't apply for people living near the centers.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Sat May 04, 2013 10:42 pm

Pero wrote:Maybe the courses are mostly YY and VD because it's a lot easier to learn this in person where you can ask questions and be corrected by the instructor .


Also YY and VD have aspects parts that can be taught and practised by people that haven't had transmission. They can be good community outreach to introduce new people to Rinpoche's teachings without them having to have received transmission.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Sat May 04, 2013 11:00 pm

simhanada wrote:
Pero wrote:Maybe the courses are mostly YY and VD because it's a lot easier to learn this in person where you can ask questions and be corrected by the instructor .


Also YY and VD have aspects parts that can be taught and practised by people that haven't had transmission. They can be good community outreach to introduce new people to Rinpoche's teachings without them having to have received transmission.

Oh yeah that's right, forgot about that (didn't know about VD though).
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby simhanada » Sun May 05, 2013 1:13 am

Pero wrote:Oh yeah that's right, forgot about that (didn't know about VD though).


Just the dance of the six spaces of samantabhadra.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sun May 05, 2013 8:44 am

All good points, but then why do only a few people come when beginning (or advanced) Yantra Yoga or Vajra Dance courses are offered at the major centers?

Perhaps the market has been saturated /exhausted and some "new" teachings would bring in more people.

Perhaps more people would participate if the classes were given as on-line / webcast as well.

Perhaps more people would participate if the fees were "by donation" instead of $150 to $600 per workshop.

The key point of opening free access to an indexed Media Archive (with a new permission structure from Rinpoche) would allow all members to have access to, and get the benefit of, all the Teachings of the DC, through "attending" any past retreat of Rinpoche's, that they choose to.

My 2 cents is that everything can be taught on the web. Subjects that are taught more easily through interaction can be taught through group interactive classes. Skype, Google, Go to meeting etc offer this capability.

My 2 cents is that the "dangers" of yantra yoga are overblown and that anyone who can read, can also read the caveats, cautions, and protections that are necessary and helpful to avoid health problems. I first learned yy at retreats, but then enjoyed many hours of practicing along with video tapes.

Once when I was living in a place that did not have a dance mandala, a few people and myself got together and painted a roll up one, and rented space, twice a week, in a local school. One person was experienced and she taught us how to dance, for free.

Sure there are many practices that are more easily accomplished through group participation. Chod, Mike Katz's dream yoga workshops, learning the mudras, learning the melodies of the rituals and songs, learning the pronunciation of the Tibetan words in rituals, doing the semzins and rushens, doing the practice of the 6 lokas, celebrating Gana Puja, performing shi tro, kum nye massage, and zer nga, etc all lend themselves to be taught / practiced in a group setting, etc, but all of these could also be taught on-line, in interactive meetings / classes.

This can be organized in the appropriate languages.

It would be good if there were a list of approved teachers for each practice that members could email if they have questions. Perhaps the list of SMS teachers is a start. This is published on-line.

http://kunsangar.org/media/cmsmediafile ... ERS%20.pdf

Hope this helps,

Best everything,

ob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby T. Chokyi » Sun May 05, 2013 4:11 pm

oldbob wrote::good: :good: :good: :group:

All great posts.

Nice to see this thread come alive, facing some of the issues of the DC.

Everyone describes the elephant from their point of view, like the blind wise men in the story, depending on what parts they touched.

I think that transmission depends on faith and devotion: the a-tuning of the student to the Teacher.

Please note the point about Ven. Jigme Lingpa's transmission / permissions from the omniscient Ven. Longchenpa.

So if with tears in the eyes, and your arm hairs standing straight up (2 signs of heart devotion) if you ask ChNNR for transmission / permission at ANY time - perhaps you will get it.

This has nothing to do with what his physical body, in this incarnation, is doing at the time. This is my piece of the elephant.

I have also been standing 1 meter from Rinpoche when someone asked him, "Can you get lung transmission from a recording?"

Rinpoche paused a moment and then said, "Yes, it is all sound," and then rolled his eyes up. This occurred at Tseygyalgar, on the upper land, many years ago. There were several witnesses.


Maybe he has since changed his mind.

Perhaps there are several personalities, in play, who teach different things at different times, just to keep things interesting. :smile: :woohoo: :smile:

Yes, I am back in the States, having survived 2 months in Margarita. You don't want to know, but I may address the issues in a separate thread.

ob


Dear oldbob,

I believe you, I also think that Rinpoche can transmit from a recording anytime, because Rinpoche has no limit to how he can empower us, however, for the sake of our understanding, in other words, because so many confusions come, I believe this is why Rinpoche has specified that we be in the same time (moment) in the same "space"... I have found even in recent teachings by a different master, that you can get the empowerment from the recording (pre-recorded empowerment) if you have the "heart" for this... so I believe you, and you are "right" or "correct", just like I was "right" or "correct"...however this "rightness" of course has nothing to do with actuality... "how it is" :heart:

I also appreciate when you say:

oldbob wrote::
Perhaps there are several personalities, in play, who teach different things at different times, just to keep things interesting. :smile: :woohoo: :smile:


:thumbsup:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Sun May 05, 2013 5:12 pm

Pero wrote,

"I don't live that near to any DC center so why would I go to a course with all the expenses (course + travel + accommodation + food = lots of money) if I can easily learn it from a book and DVD (~10 times less than combined cost of course)? This of course doesn't apply for people living near the centers."

[Now I am writing]

No monetization structure (how much the different classes of membership pay) of any retreat, of the DC, has ever addressed the issue of the HUGH COST differential for people coming from far away. I was going to 3-4 retreats per year since 1982 at a cost from $300 to $1500 per retreat. Because of my good jobs, I could happily afford this. Most people cannot. The webcasts help, but are not the same thing as attending in person.

In

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=4052&start=3240#p162529

I speak of:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Example: For the wealthy who are meritorious members of the DC, who live within commuting distance of Conway, [for] the upcoming DC retreat there is 0 actual cost for the retreat. For a non-member, coming from Hawaii (worse case distance in the US), who has attended any DC retreat before, the actual cost is $600 plus airfare of around $800, plus bus transportation to the Conway area of $100 r/t, plus motel of $60 per night, for the 7 nights necessary to attend the retreat, so add $400. This makes a total of almost $2000.

The DC retreats have developed a reputation as a "club for the rich."

At the last Tsegyalgar retreat, the attendance dropped to 350 from the previous retreat's 650.

What is wrong with this picture?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure on the website there is a disclaimer stating:

"Special Circumstances: DCA will make every effort to make this retreat financially accessible to anyone interested in the Teachings. If you have special circumstances to discuss, please email the Yellow Gakyil at: yellowgakyil@tsegyalgar.org

Work Study Positions: A limited number of Work Study positions are available for this retreat on a first-come first served basis. If you're interested, please email the Work Study Coordinator, Rita Kaiser at: rwkaiser@verizon.net"

I fear that many poor people are too humble, or shy, to apply for the "special circumstances."

I fear that many who would want work study are turned down because of the "limited number of positions."

The $2000, cost comparison made above, is between the actual total costs of attending the upcoming Tseygyalgar retreat, for 2 different types of DC membership. Two thousand dollars is a great deal of money. My gut sense is that this amount of difference could easily be a show stopper, for someone of limited means, coming from far away. This would be a shame.

The Conway Mass. retreat is the only long retreat this year in the USA. It is nice that there are several, few day, retreats in the West of the US, but this is not the same experience as a week with Rinpoche. Had the far-away, non-member (in this example) been offered the same price as the normal, or reduced member, they would have an additional $300 to pay for the other expenses. Had the Conway retreat been charged for at a flat $100 for all types of membership, this would have allowed an additional $500 to be put towards the actual costs of hotel and transportation. This could easily be the tipping point between attending and not attending.

My 2 cents is that retreats should be charged for at actual cost, and not be used to raise operating funds. Operating funds should be raised by the membership fees and direct donations. I think that then, many more people would be able to attend the precious retreats of ChNNR and get the benefit. If the retreat fee was a fixed $100 for all classes of membership, then with the 350 people who attended last year, $35,000 would have been raised. I believe that this would have easily covered expenses. Of course it is also wise and prudent, to offer reduced retreat fees to the elderly, students and those on "reduced" membership. The Tseygyalgar Gakyil did NOT/NOT allow for any of these reductions in fees.

I strongly believe that fees charged, should not be a potential show stopper imposed by a Dharma organization. In recognition of this, many Dharma groups include the phrase, "no one will be turned away due to lack of funds," in their advertisements for Dharma events. The inclusion of this phrase makes the point that all are welcome.

My 2 cents is that the high prices and SHAMEFUL differentiation, between what a "meritorious" member pays and what a non member pays, is caused by the people setting these monetization policies being disconnected from the realities of ordinary people. At least 2 of the 3 members of the yellow Gakyil at Tseygyalgar are VERY wealthy (perhaps meritorious members?). They are supported in their setting the pricing by some members of the Gakyil, (local and international) who give the appearance of simply not caring if people get access to the retreats and Teachings.

I can't understand the thinking of these people at all. My 2 cents is that there must be some kind of ego reward to themselves, by feeling that they can differentiate themselves in a good way, in their own minds, between those who can afford to pay the high prices and those who can not. This is the mentality of: "I've got it, you want it, and I am not going to let you have it unless you pay me for it." This works for business. It does not apply to any Buddha Dharma, Dzogchen or otherwise. This is the opposite of open-hearted kindness, which is the essence of ALL Buddha Dharma, Dzogchen or otherwise, (as illuminated through the 3 emptys and four strayings).

The appearance, is that these self-satisfied members of the Gaykil, and their advisors, simply do not care, in a way that is helpful to everyone. Financial prosperity is not necessarily the same as open-hearted kindness. Open-hearted kindness can include great financial prosperity.

Offering "special circumstances" and "limited work study" OR a free on-line Mirror subscription, OR a Tseygyalgar blog, OR pot-luck dinners with bingo (I could not make this up), OR paper making courses (I could not make this up), OR barbecues on the land, is NOT the same thing as open-hearted kindness: making EVERYONE feel welcome, and included, at retreats, (and with regards to equal access to all the Teachings), regardless of their financial standing.

Perhaps doing our best can be done better! Well organized, well managed, retreats are not necessarily kindly, including everyone, retreats. With open-hearted kindness, and equal access to the Teachings, everything is possible. Perhaps we need to find Gaykil members (local and international) who embody this.

This is not politics, whining, or passive aggression. It is a simple statement of the way things actually are in the DCA, in the completely sincere hope that the powers-that-be will make things easier for those with limited means. Hence my illustration of the $2000 difference, and all this blah, blah, blah.

For an old timer like myself, who is just happy to sit in the sun, I can be at the other side of the world and still get the benefit of the DI, by webcast. For newcomers, I think that it would be useful to attend retreats in person, in order to get the DI more directly, and at least until confidence in this experience is developed.

I am eternally grateful to Ven. ChNNR, and my other Ven. Dharma Teachers for sharing their precious Dharma Teachings with me. Personally, I am a very happy camper and have no complaints what-so-ever.

"We are all in the same boat."

Be the boat.

:heart:

ob
Last edited by oldbob on Sun May 05, 2013 6:12 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby MalaBeads » Sun May 05, 2013 5:41 pm

OB,

I do think you're on to something here so I'd encourage you to keep at it. Every time i read one of your posts, its a little clearer what you're saying. Which is of course complicated. Not easy to unravel this particular ball of wax (sorry, for the mixed metaphor).

As best as I can understand it, you are talking about money, power and access and how they interact. Funny, but when you described how two of the yellow gakyil members were very wealthy and therefore you suspected very out of touch with the circumstances of ordinary people, I couldn't help but flash back to descriptions of a recent US administration as being the same way.

I do remember hearing KY say that what works is different in every country so perhaps this is just a US problem, i don't know. But people are people everywhere and its just possible that money, power and access circumstances differ only superficially. But again, i don't really know.

Anyway, keep it up. Every post is clearer. Your long history of involvement in the DC is useful.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby T. Chokyi » Sun May 05, 2013 6:17 pm

May 8 – 12 Tsegyalgar West Retreat
“Zhinang Yeshes Dronme" (Tib. g.zhi-snang ye-shes sgron-me),
The Wisdom light of the Base.

closed webcast

All times are baja california time: [gmt-6:00]

Teaching program (total 5 sections):

May 8 - 5:00pm to 7:00 pm
May 9 - 10:00am to 12:00 am
May 9 - 6pm - Ganapuja - Aniversary of Sangye Lingpa
May 10 - 10:00am to 12:00 pm
May 11 - 10:00am to 12:00 pm
May 12 - 10:00am to 12:00 pm

In the Webcast Site http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast You will find updated SCHEDULE and
information.

If you are new to webcasts, you can get a membership through your local Gar and listen to
re-runs as well as "closed" webcasts, get more information here:

http://tsegyalgar.org/support/onlinemembership/

List of Gars & Lings (near you)

http://tsegyalgar.org/communityworldwide/communityworldwide/
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Clarence » Sun May 05, 2013 7:15 pm

Oldbob,

Very interesting post again.

I keep wondering why you don't bring this up at the vajracakra forum. There are actually people there who have served on a Gaykil or run DC centers. I would love to see their responses.

I pray that your wishes come true as I think people would be better served with your ideas implemented.

Best, C
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