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Emptiness of phenomena?? - Dhamma Wheel

Emptiness of phenomena??

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DarwidHalim
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Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:48 am

Dear Members,


Theravada teach us about the emptiness of person. In Vipassana, we can see directly and precisely that this self called I is completely a fantasy. The "I" never ever exist.

According to the claim of a particular Buddhist school, although Theravada realize the emptiness of person, they do not agree that phenomena is also completely empty, like the emptiness of "I". There is something (such as a self, an essence, or an identity) in phenomena that exist.

What is your opinion and view about this claim?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

chris98e
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby chris98e » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:17 am

I always take the easy way out and say I exist and don't exist at the same time. :buddha2:

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Prasadachitta
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:25 am

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:01 am

Actually I am not very sure about this in Theravada an I cannot claim that all Theravada have the view that emptiness of person is equivalent to emptiness of phenomena.

The Pali text, which you quote show us the emptiness of human senses, which in this case is classified as emptiness of person. The teaching of dependent origination in Pali text shows us the link between ignorance until birth, which is also valid for a person issue.

However, so far I never come across a Pali text that talk about the emptiness outside a person or outside senses.

Based on this, it is then claimed that some Theravada do not accept the emptiness of self as equivalent to the emptiness of phenomena.

I personally do not know the exact truth of the claim, because the answer seems varies.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Goofaholix
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby Goofaholix » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:01 am


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ground
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby ground » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:36 am


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DarwidHalim
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:41 am

Based on what I feel, it seems that some of Theravada do not accept emptiness of phenomena.
Please note that this is what I feel.

Why I say this is because I sense that some of us here regard suffering as real. Ignorance is real. Impermanence is real.

If we accept the emptiness of phenomena, there is no suffering, there is no ignorance, there is no increment, there is no decrement, there is no gain, there is no loss, there is no achievement, and even there is no impermanence. There is no existence nor non-existence. There is also nothing in between.

Since phenomena is empty, no self, no essence, no identity, we have no base at all to put the properties.

If the subject itself is not there, how can we have the properties, such as impermanence, permanence, existence, non-existence,etc.

We say this car is impermanent. We say this because there is a car.

But if the car itself doesn't exist, there is actually no self called a car.

When there is no self of car, where is the impermanence? How can we say something is impermanent, when the subject itself doesn't exist?

There realization of there is no self, automatically and naturally bring " someone" to the state of no attachment, no craving, no fear etc. because there is no base to put all these properties.

We no need to even let go. Why? Because there is nothing to let go. We are naturallly and automatically relax, sharp, and clear. No struggle at all.

This topic is huge and I have to interest to discuss it further. This kind of discussion is definitely out of Theravada school.

Although I somehow also feel that Theravada should also accept the emptiness of phenomena, I come across a claim for a particular Buddhist school that Theravada do not accept the emptiness of phenomena.

It makes me wonder as well, because from the discussion in this forum, the suffering for example is view as something real, not as an illusion.

There is an identity in this universe called suffering.

In this way, the emptiness of phenomena is then not acknowledge.
Last edited by DarwidHalim on Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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retrofuturist
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:45 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:48 am

Do you have the link for it?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Goofaholix
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby Goofaholix » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:55 am


Kenshou
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby Kenshou » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:56 am

I do not know if this idea of emptiness as non-existence is some Mahayana thing or a misinterpretation on your part, Darwid, but I'm going to be so presumptuous as to say that it's just not correct. Theravada certainly does not accept this idea of emptiness, you are right about that.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:00 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:13 am

I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Prasadachitta
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:28 am

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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retrofuturist
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:31 am

:goodpost:

To talk of the "emptiness of phenomena" "outside a person or outside senses" is to mentally conceive of dhammas, which is to render them far less empty than they ought to be.

"Outside a person or outside senses" is outside experience, and therefore outside the relevance of dukkha and nirodha. Thinking about it however, is a mental construct established "within a person, within the senses", which serves no benefit other than to distract attention away from what is actually going on "within a person, within the senses".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Goofaholix
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby Goofaholix » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:47 am


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DarwidHalim
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Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:03 am

I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

User avatar
Prasadachitta
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Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:11 am

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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ground
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby ground » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:26 am

This thread is about philosophers getting obsessed with their fabrications and are thus losing sight of the path.
All these Madhyamaka philosophers (prasangika, svatantrika and what have you) have produced utter nonsense for hundreds of years and still people are attracted by their fabrications. If the Buddha would not have taught that views are manifestions of clinging aggregates this would be unbelievable.


kind regards

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Ben
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Re: Emptiness of phenomena??

Postby Ben » Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:39 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

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