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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:00 pm 
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I hope not.

Sara as I said the main think that made me uncomfortable with obc is the intolerance for criticism and the framing of peopke who keft ir detractors as imbakanced, bitter etc. Sure, this problem affects many organizations but since the topic of this thread is obc we are discussing obc.

The best way to defend jk would not be to attack questioners, but to demonstrate tgat what she was teaching about previous lives etc has a precedent in the traditions of her lineage masters.

If it does not, and is perhaps a mishmash or the result of health problems or simply not enough training or knowledge of the source kanguage of her tradition, those are all things to be concerned about.

As the founder of a monastery and lineage master, was jk fluent in either classical or spoken chinese or japanese?

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Sara H wrote:
Friend, I've experienced this for myself, you can believe whatever you want.


Whatever you experienced for yourself, it is not in line with how karma is taught in Buddhism.

Sara H wrote:
I'm sorry that the Buddhas teaching that sarcasm, is harsh speech, and insulting behavior is getting old to you.

It's not Right Speech, and it's against forum rules.


You really should look into the mirror Sara. Unfortunately it seems your mirror (and seems likewise for other OBC members) is already badly cracked.

Sara H wrote:
I wish you well, and I'm going to stop responding to you.


You were actually not supposed to respond to any of us when you said you were leaving and no longer posting here. Was that Right Speech?

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If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:06 pm 
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JKhedrup wrote:
I hope not.

Sara as I said the main think that made me uncomfortable with obc is the intolerance for criticism and the framing of peopke who keft ir detractors as imbakanced, bitter etc. Sure, this problem affects many organizations but since the topic of this thread is obc we are discussing obc.

The best way to defend jk would not be to attack questioners, but to demonstrate tgat what she was teaching about previous lives etc has a precedent in the traditions of her lineage masters.

If it does not, and is perhaps a mishmash or the result of health problems or simply not enough training or knowledge of the source kanguage of her tradition, those are all things to be concerned about.

As the founder of a monastery and lineage master, was jk fluent in either classical or spoken chinese or japanese?


They've already done such a thing on many occasions.

This is an old and already debunked fight that is catching up to the age of the internet and so seems new.

Yes, Jiyu-Kennett was fluent in written and spoken Japanese, and some of her monks were fluent in both (Chinese and Japanese), including ancient forms of it.

When Jiyu-Kennett gave a copy of her book with her experiences to Soji-ji, they were very excited and showed her a book of Keizan's accounts of such experiences.

Rev. Hubert has a PHD in these languages, and has done a great deal of research and translation on this.

So no, they're not just pulling it out of their ass. This is real.

_________________
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Sara H wrote:
One person's karma doesn't go in it's entirety to one other person. (reincarnation)

It can be and often is split up into many different aspects and sent to many different beings. (rebirth)

For instance, you might get the karma of somebody who got angry and drunk and died in a bar fight.

However somebody else might get the karma from the same person of when they were abused as a child.

Somebody else might get the karma of that person's time in the military, or a specific battle.

It's not all bundled into one person like you are suggesting.

In all seriousness, is this what is taught by the OBC? Can you provide a reference?

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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:15 pm 
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I am glad they have knowledge of source languages.

Has soji-ji given an official endorsement of JK, and her later innovations? Is this endorsement available for perusal?

The take on karma you mentioned is a bit surprising to me. It sounds rather different that what i have read in translation from chinese chan masters.

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:20 pm 
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JKhedrup wrote:
I am glad they have knowledge of source languages.

Has soji-ji given an official endorsement of JK, and her later innovations? Is this endorsement available for perusal?

The take on karma you mentioned is a bit surprising to me. It sounds rather different that what i have read in translation from chinese chan masters.


I will ask about that.

I know that she was definitely officially endorsed when she trained there.

And I know that they didn't have any problem with her teachings on that book.

Whether or not they gave her some sort of official stamp of approval, I don't know. It might not have seemed necessary.

Remember, in Japan, things like the existence of spirits for instance are common knowledge, they tend to think that westerners are a little strange for having such a secular view of Buddhism.

I can certainly ask though, they certainly didn't denounce it all all, or say that it wasn't Zen, after all they seemed very enthused about it.

But I can ask.

_________________
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:58 am 
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Sara H wrote:
You're also still taking an incorrect view of karma, that is along the lines of reincarnation, not rebirth.

One person's karma doesn't go in it's entirety to one other person. (reincarnation)

It can be and often is split up into many different aspects and sent to many different beings. (rebirth)

For instance, you might get the karma of somebody who got angry and drunk and died in a bar fight.

However somebody else might get the karma from the same person of when they were abused as a child.

Somebody else might get the karma of that person's time in the military, or a specific battle.

It's not all bundled into one person like you are suggesting.
Absolute nonsense. Can you provide a single Canonical reference to back this bizarre misinterpretation of karma and rebirth?

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Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:09 am 
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Btw,
Jkhedrup,

Just for reference,

Here is a bit about Keizan:


Quote:
Oxford Dictionary of Buddhism:
Keizan Jōkin
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(1268-1325)

A Japanese Sōtō zen monk who authored the Denkō-roku (Taishō 2585), an authoritative Sōtō Zen historical work composed between 1299 and 1301. He was a fourth-generation successor to Sōtō founder Dōgen (1200-53), and considered the second great patriarch of the school. Strongly spiritual, he had frequent visions of the Bodhisattva Kannon (Avalokiteśvara) in his youth, and entered the monastic order very early in his childhood at the behest of his mother. He trained at the Sōtō headquarters temple, Eiheiji, and from 1285-88 went on a pilgrimage to many temples and masters around Japan, broadening his knowledge of Buddhism. Following the transmission of the Dharma from his master, Tettsu Gikai (1219-1309), he was sent to be founding abbot of the Jōman Temple in Awa, and later succeeded his master as abbot of the Daijō Temple. He founded other temples and posted his disciples as abbots, but his greatest achievement in this regard came when he was given charge of a former Shingon temple which he renamed the Sōjiji. Under his direction it became the main temple of the Sōtō school, rivalling the Eiheiji in importance and gaining imperial patronage. By the time of his death, his spiritual achievements, charisma, diplomatic skills, and administrative ability had helped heal the schisms that the Sōtō school had undergone during his master's lifetime, and Keizan's branch of Sōtō became predominant.

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/keizan-jokin#ixzz2SHVpuhwA

http://www.answers.com/topic/keizan-jokin

The book, in question that I had mentioned earlier about Keizan's accounts is I believe called The Record of the Tōkoku but I could be wrong, and there may be more than one.

Also,

Theravadan monk Phra Acharn Mun, had such visions and things, and he published his accounts of them, which the Theravadan's have been kind enough to publish for free online as a .PDF:

http://www.thaibuddhism.net/Achan_Man.pdf

So it's not as unknown as people might think.

Myoe Shonin (1173-1232) who was a Nara Buddhist, also had such visions and kept an illustrated diary of them.
There is an English version of a mostly complete copy of it available:
http://www.amazon.com/Myoe-Dreamkeeper- ... 0674597001


In Gassho,
Sara

_________________
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:27 am 
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At this point, you still haven't clarified if what you said about rebirth is what OBC teaches, so bringing up accounts of Buddhist masters' experiences is not going to prove anything, since the OBC might already get one of the fundamental teachings of Buddhism so woefully wrong that it's ideas of past lives (and maybe the entire school's teachings) are essentially non-Buddhist.

_________________
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 3:02 am 
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Btw, Jkhedrup,

As Keizan had frequent visions, and So-Jiji was Keizan's school, it stands to reason that that's why they didn't have any problem with it, and also why they would have a copy of his experiences in their archives to compare with hers.

Keizan's teachings are all a part of official Soto Zen teachings, at least from the lineage of Soto that stems from his line, and so that would include his teachings on and his accounts of his visions and such.

So you could say that "Zen teachers having visions, and teaching based on those visions" is very much a part of official Soto Zen.

This could also be why Nonin Chowaney, and the former president of the Soto Zen Buddhist Association Eido Francis Carney don't have a problem with the OBC or Shasta Abbey's practice. Because they know these things are true for themselves, and as Nonin Chowaney said, "authentic Soto Zen Buddhist monastic practice" and "on balance" and "extremely wise and compassionate."
http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=9016&hilit=OBC

That's the view that other Soto masters have of the OBC and their teachings there.
As Nonin Chowaney said: "I've recommended that my students either visit the place or sign up for a practice period, and a couple of them have done so and have returned for more. They agree with my assessment of the place, the people, and the practice there."

So regardless of what other people outside may think, it's very much Soto practice.

Sara

_________________
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:00 am 
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Thanks sara for your patience in posting a bit about visionary experiences in JK's parent tradition.

Have you checked your understanding of karma with senior teachers at obc? People are not expressing concern just to be difficult, it is unlike any Buddhist (or for that matter Hindu) explanation of karma I have ever heard or read. I hope you get this checked before explaining or sharing it with anyone else-to meit seems like a wrong view that could cause tremendous confusion.

This view on karma could also harm your own practice as if the line of reasoning is followed it seems peopke could experience effects of jarma someobe else has accumulated. Even on the level oflogic alone, without taking into account the scriptures, it makes no sense. The answer of 'i've experienced ir'won't cut it here. Dharma needs to be protected from mistaken views.

It is important to rely on authentic scriptures regarding fundamental doctrines like karma.

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


Last edited by JKhedrup on Sat May 04, 2013 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:12 am 
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khedrup , jiyu kennett was the personal student of the chief abbott of sojiji , that is significant. she has all the licenses etcetera from soto zen to teach Soto ZEn completely. As to whether they approved of her book, How to grow a lotus Blossom . we woould have to check.


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:16 am 
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what she said about karma isnt wrong , if so , why are there more than one Khyentse Tulku.
you greg stop being officious.


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:04 am 
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Lama tsewang,

She is saying for example the karma that one person accumulates during different phases of their life can be inherited by different beings in a future rebirth. I have honestly never heard such a thing, and checked it and can find no textualmprecedent for such a view. Though if there is one I'd be happy to look at it. I actually think this is sara's unique idea rather than official obc doctrine. I would be very surprised if it was.

What you say about the Kyentse line is true though I am not sure we could use it to support sara's view. This is because kyentse was considered a great bodhisattva and thus would be capable of produ6cing multiple emanation bodies, according tk mahayana doctrine about the powers of bodhisattvas. This mightvalso prove problematic on some levels but that is a discussion for anotheepr thread.

Interexting discussion, enjoying participating but as i have to translate a course it might be hard to respond throughout the weekend.

I understang kennet trained in a traditional monastery and do respect that. I also respect her commitnent to founding a western sangha-no easy task. What i worry about is some of the unusual doctrines and emphasis on past lives, as i think those could be damaging, havingbseen the impact of such things in thr dhamnakaya movement.

I think a lot of the complaints posted here from former follwers of jiyu kennett can be expkained by the fact that as her health declined she had more difficulty in the role of leading disciples. Because of this, many left at certain peroids, and as she was hurt by this she said things to them that reflected that hurt.

My opinion is that jk was not a bad persion, just an ordinary one. Being a pioneer in the early days meant she did not have access to the dharma resources we have now, so i think she filled things in from other elements. Whether people want to take her system and practice it is up tobthem-i am interested if it reasly does jive with traditional soto teachings.

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:25 am 
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what uinuual doctrines?
Really?
Show me!!
I ahve known the local OBC monk in Vancouver for over 25 years .

I know what they teach.
The OBC monks that I know here, the four of them , follow the prrecepts meticulously.
They dont respond to peoples very public criticism of them , because they dont want to upset or speak strongly against others . I have never seen them put up any response to nasty things that have been said , have any of you!

i know whats in their books please show me something that they have published, thats off.?
Really please do it Tibetans do speak of past life memories occasionally. And Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche often told us of his dream visions.


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:38 am 
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Dear lama tsewang,

The unusual take on rebirth as expressed by sara. As I said, i do think it is possible this is not official OBC teaching, more her own (sara's) interpretation. I do not think their books would express this view, fron what I can find online. So i made the mistake of prematurely taking sara's view as the standard obc one.

So i apologize for saying unusual doctrines, i rather should have said unusual visionary experiences. For vinaya traditionalists like me, though, their monastic innovations are a bit unusual.

I agree the teachers at obc not responded in anger on any doctrine discussion forum, though obc connect is a bit messy, like politics of many organizations.. At the same time, it would be great to talk to oneof the teachers at obc about how karma and rebirth is taught.

As I stated earlier, my opinions are formed by the Gelug and Theravada doctrines to which I am most exposed, so of course i oike the follower of any lineage will be biased to the paradigm i am used to-disclaimer. Perhaps this is also why i am used to a culture where it is a bit of a faux pas to speak extensively about one's past lives, or what obe thinks one's past lives might have been.

Also inthe gelug paradigm spirited debate is the norm and people say something is unusual or doesn't make any sense rather frequently, and no offence is taken. I should have been more sensitive though and realized outside that sphere it might be seen as fault finding. I am a product of my dharma upbringing for sure in that respect. I like a good philosophical sparring.

It does not mean i am not open to hearing other interpretatiobs though. Otherwise i would bury my head in the sand and not participate in discussions such as this one.

_________________
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 8:44 am 
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lama tsewang wrote:
what she said about karma isnt wrong , if so , why are there more than one Khyentse Tulku.
you greg stop being officious.
I am sorry Lama Tsewang, but the example you gave, apart from being unrrelated, shows more about the nature of Tibetan religious politics than the reality of what the Buddha taught about karma. Maybe you have a canonical/scriptural references for the (wrong?) view that is being promoted?

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Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:24 am 
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JKhedrup wrote:
Thanks sara for your patience in posting a bit about visionary experiences in JK's parent tradition.

Have you checked your understanding of karma with senior teachers at obc? People are not expressing concern just to be difficult, it is unlike any Buddhist (or for that matter Hindu) explanation of karma I have ever heard or read. I hope you get this checked before explaining or sharing it with anyone else-to meit seems like a wrong view that could cause tremendous confusion.

This view on karma could also harm your own practice as if the line of reasoning is followed it seems peopke could experience effects of jarma someobe else has accumulated. Even on the level oflogic alone, without taking into account the scriptures, it makes no sense. The answer of 'i've experienced ir'won't cut it here. Dharma needs to be protected from mistaken views.

It is important to rely on authentic scriptures regarding fundamental doctrines like karma.


I'm just expressing from my own experience.

People can take what they want from that.

I don't know if the OBC has an "official" policy on that.

I think they just teach Zen. This is my own experience though, and I stand by it, because this is what I've seen come up for myself. What other people think is their business as far as I'm concerned about that, and I respect their right to their opinions. Also, you know, I don't know how other people experience this, I can only say how I've experienced this, and talk about what other people have written, or said, and my interpretations of that, but for me, I've seen this to be true, from my own practice and training. I can live with that. At the end of the day, that's why I'm doing this, to help myself, and not other people other than those lives I carry, and the people that I love, but I also know, that doing this practice helps other people, and that's why I do it to, because I love them.

I can say this: I had one life where I had a family, three people all come up at the same time. A daughter who killed herself, a sister who killed herself out of grief from her older sister's loss, and the father of both who didn't kill himself, but suffered a huge amount of grief. It was all packaged together as "one life" or "one event". I don't know what traditional Dharma has to say about that, but I do know what I experienced, and I accept them and love them. That's all I can say about that.

Sara

_________________
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:05 am 
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Time to move on I think.

:namaste:


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:15 am 
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Sara H wrote:
I'm just expressing from my own experience.
Have you ever considered that your interpretation of your experience may be flawed?

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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