Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby Meido » Thu May 02, 2013 5:19 am

Indrajala wrote:How is that any different from bodhisattva precepts where becoming angry or belittling others in any way is a pārājika?


This brings to mind also the Zen approach to these in which, for example, the precept of not becoming angry or belittling others is considered broken if one even gives rise to a concept of self-as-substance.

~ Meido
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby randomseb » Thu May 02, 2013 5:47 am

Clearly this thread is turning into another "my view is better than your view" thread!

Also clearly all paths have a certain measure of self-elevation ("we are better than x, y, z!") and self-preservation, and some have a lot of cult-of-personality style interpretations ("worship the guru! worship the teacher!", yes sure, but this is not actually about the person in front of you)

I stand by: do the practice that works for you, and let others deal with the consequences of their own karmic actions, on their own. They need to mind their own mind, not yours.. After all, it's your mind, not theirs!

:rolling:
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby Adamantine » Thu May 02, 2013 6:02 am

randomseb wrote:I stand by: do the practice that works for you, and let others deal with the consequences of their own karmic actions, on their own. They need to mind their own mind, not yours.. After all, it's your mind, not theirs!




Well, that would apply also to you in this instance, mind your own practice, walk the talk. For some of us, our practice may involve sharing the best advice we can give from our own understanding when we are asked personally or in a forum setting.

But if you feel that sharing one's opinion when asked, even if it's in regards to someone else's practice, is not proper conduct: then you should just "let it be".

To quote you: " let others deal with the consequences of their own karmic actions, on their own." They need to "mind their own mind, not yours".

If you were walking your own talk you would never have even posted half of your posts in this thread including the one above! Just a'sayin.
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu May 02, 2013 8:42 am

dharmagoat wrote:I willing to concede that I am on a one-way trip along a road to nowhere.
Nowhere is quite nice at this time of the year! :smile:
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby Luke » Thu May 02, 2013 9:14 am

Meido wrote:This brings to mind also the Zen approach to these in which, for example, the precept of not becoming angry or belittling others is considered broken if one even gives rise to a concept of self-as-substance.

That's quite interesting, Meido! Can you give me any links about this?
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby Adamantine » Thu May 02, 2013 10:20 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:I willing to concede that I am on a one-way trip along a road to nowhere.
Nowhere is quite nice at this time of the year! :smile:


You could always ask this guy about the weather there:

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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby randomseb » Thu May 02, 2013 2:59 pm

Adamantine wrote:Well, that would apply also to you in this instance, mind your own practice, walk the talk.


Now now, no need to feel violently defensive, nobody is pointing any fingers.

My point was that some people are trying a little to hard to push particular practices on others because of their own personal baggage. Some may actually be trying to convince themselves, with their evangelism, you know?

Doesn't matter to me, all I am getting at is people need to explore their own motivations in their own mind. This is buddhism, not some western religion!

:rolleye:
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby tomamundsen » Fri May 03, 2013 5:37 am

Indrajala wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:The Tantric Vows are more difficult.


You've yet to really demonstrate this. This is just your belief and value assessment. You're entitled to it, of course, but let's just conclude it is entirely subjective unless we establish proper criteria with which to judge whether one set of precepts are more difficult than another one.

The tantric samayas are harder to keep because they require the practitioner to maintain pure vision 24/7.
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby Indrajala » Fri May 03, 2013 5:44 am

tomamundsen wrote:The tantric samayas are harder to keep because they require the practitioner to maintain pure vision 24/7.


Bodhisattva precepts prohibiting anger are equally as stringent. The moment you get angry you have broken your precept and must confess it. The moment you refrain from giving, you break your precept and must confess it. Bodhisattva precepts are generally said to be mental precepts in contrast to physical and verbal precepts, so even a thought of harming another being is a violation of the precept and it must be confessed.

So I don't agree with your statement here.
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby tomamundsen » Fri May 03, 2013 10:05 am

Indrajala wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:The tantric samayas are harder to keep because they require the practitioner to maintain pure vision 24/7.


Bodhisattva precepts prohibiting anger are equally as stringent. The moment you get angry you have broken your precept and must confess it. The moment you refrain from giving, you break your precept and must confess it. Bodhisattva precepts are generally said to be mental precepts in contrast to physical and verbal precepts, so even a thought of harming another being is a violation of the precept and it must be confessed.

So I don't agree with your statement here.

Hi venerable,
Precepts on refraining from anger are on a different level than what I am trying to describe here. Pure vision involves viewing all of your experiences as a mandala of wisdom. I don't remember all of the aspects, but the sense organs are the male buddhas, the sense objects are the female buddhas, and so on. It goes something like that. Maintaining pure vision in this way is extremely difficult, no?
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby Adamantine » Fri May 03, 2013 12:57 pm

randomseb wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Well, that would apply also to you in this instance, mind your own practice, walk the talk.


Now now, no need to feel violently defensive, nobody is pointing any fingers.


Violently defensive? :rolling: you are funny. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of your platform.

My point was that some people are trying a little to hard to push particular practices on others because of their own personal baggage. Some may actually be trying to convince themselves, with their evangelism, you know?


Vajrayana has it's own internal logic, it is it's own science. My own motivation is answering from the point of view of that logic, because that is the context of the OP and their question. I have personally found a consistently powerful reason to believe in the efficacy of that science because I have encountered, and continue to, extraordinary beings that have devoted their lives to it, that shine beyond what I've found in all other contexts during a lifetime of spiritual search and pilgrimage. It's funny that you find anyone sharing the perspective of a living Mahayana tradition to be evangelism in a Mahayana Buddhist forum. People who arrive here are clearly interested in Mahayana Buddhism, so speaking about Mahayana Buddhism, -especially it's tantric approach in a thread about tantra- is anything but evangelical.

Doesn't matter to me, all I am getting at is people need to explore their own motivations in their own mind. This is buddhism, not some western religion!
It's appearing (to me at least) that you may not be very well informed about these tradition/s you somehow feel qualified to comment and advise about. Is there any basis you can give that should give others confidence in your opinions?
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby randomseb » Fri May 03, 2013 4:11 pm

See what I mean? You just can't leave it alone, you have to push and push and push.. Why is that? Ask your guru about this. Please note that other people exist, in principle, and are equality as potentially informed about illusionary things in the contrived samsaric world!

:twothumbsup:
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby Meido » Fri May 03, 2013 7:03 pm

Luke wrote: Meido wrote:This brings to mind also the Zen approach to these in which, for example, the precept of not becoming angry or belittling others is considered broken if one even gives rise to a concept of self-as-substance.

That's quite interesting, Meido! Can you give me any links about this?


Probably off-topic here, so I sent something to your PM.

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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby Luke » Fri May 03, 2013 8:56 pm

Hey Randomseb and Admantine: Chill out!

I appreciate the opinions and information which both of you have given me, but I feel bad that my thread caused you to feel hatred for one another.
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby Adamantine » Sat May 04, 2013 3:00 am

Luke wrote:Hey Randomseb and Admantine: Chill out!

I appreciate the opinions and information which both of you have given me, but I feel bad that my thread caused you to feel hatred for one another.


Hi Luke, I am sorry if this exchange has come across this way, and if my words seem abrasive.
The problem with this form of textual communication is that there's endless leeway for anyone to project emotion upon the flat stringing together of visual sentences.

I am not experiencing an iota of hatred for randomseb or anyone else here. I don't have anything personal in this game, but I do like to cut through hot air when I see it. The stakes are too high, for you or anyone else involved in thinking about these issues. I've devoted my life to this path because I've experienced it's profundity first hand over a long stretch. The vows are not there to trap people in a mundane way, -or whatever someone without a learned context might project onto them from their subjective bias. But they are there to trap us in a manner of speaking: to keep us on the straight and narrow path to liberation. That's why it's the quick path, like speeding in a race car it's a bit more perilous than going by foot or bicycle. Part of the peril is the tendency for upheavals: either the type you are having now or the type yogis might have during long retreats where reality and visionary aspects start to blur and manifestations appear which may deceive: in most cases it's the trickster in us bent on resistance to the dissolution of the grasping-habit of mind we usually call "ego" in our culture. Anyway, best wishes with your practice however that manifests in the future. I can share some personal related experience with you if you think it'd be helpful but maybe better not in the public forum.

~A
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby randomseb » Sat May 04, 2013 4:43 am

Luke wrote:Hey Randomseb and Admantine: Chill out!

I appreciate the opinions and information which both of you have given me, but I feel bad that my thread caused you to feel hatred for one another.


I feel nothing but compassion for the both of you, and compassion for everyone else, so don't worry about that!

My purpose generally in cases like this is to have people analyze their own mental state, when they fall into a clinging spiral, you know? Often in religion people latch on to the dogma, and forget the ultimate purpose of the teachings, as we all have probably noticed in others, but we rarely notice this in ourselves.

:rolling:

Religions are like pyramids, as you climb up the slope of practice and realization, the size of the conceptual containers, that is to say, the pile of dogma and rituals and mythological stories and so on, gets smaller and smaller, until you step onto the very top, and there is nothing left. Ahhhh! Just open space! Padma Sambhava's Clear Light of Uncreate Mind.

:applause:
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby muni » Sat May 04, 2013 8:00 am

All phenomena/dharmas are subjective, this is useful contemplation for me. Therefore some attention to our own motivations or some inner investigation in order to help is very effective, whether there is a liberating path or we look for another. At least so for me.
Buddha wasn't looking in a fitting tradition but looked in own mind. :smile:

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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby Luke » Sat May 04, 2013 2:05 pm

Adamantine wrote:in most cases it's the trickster in us bent on resistance to the dissolution of the grasping-habit of mind we usually call "ego" in our culture.

Yes, it may be that my ego is simply too big to submit to a lama and properly take part in a traditional lama-disciple type of relationship. But at least I am realistic about my capabilities and won't waste the time of anymore kind lamas.

Adamantine wrote:Anyway, best wishes with your practice however that manifests in the future.

Thanks.
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby Luke » Sun May 05, 2013 11:56 pm

I realized that in addition to reading about other types of Buddhism, I should learn some more things about Vajrayana before I make a decision which tradition to follow.

I should also probably listen to my lama's audio teachings again to see if anything new resonates with me before I call it quits with him. This seems reasonable to me at least.
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Re: Has anyone else left Vajrayana?

Postby heart » Mon May 06, 2013 11:17 am

alpha wrote:Ajaan Sumedho gives "pointing out" instructions every time but he doesnt give Direct Transmission of his state in an experiantial way.
So the question is if he can impart his state to those who listen to him.
Pointing out instructions are not enough.


Sorry to jump in like this.

Pointing-out instruction and direct introduction are exactly the same thing. The Guru never "impart his state" in the students, they recognize their own natural state. Nothing is really transmitted.

/magnus
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