Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Sara H » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:49 am

dzogchungpa wrote:I haven't read much of the OBC Connect site, but I did read some of this thread:
http://obcconnect.forumotion.net/t134-my-experience-and-leaving-mark-daiji-strathern
and it didn't inspire a lot of confidence in Kennett's "mastery".
Strathern introduces himself here:
http://obcconnect.forumotion.net/t119-mark-daiji-strathern


Monks disrobe all the time in Buddhism.

Not everyone who becomes a monk stays a monk.
People also leave organizations all the time for personal reasons or disagreements.
This too is normal.
You can't run an organization and have everyone agree, and if people disagree passionately they will leave very upset.

That doesn't make the policy decision wrong, or not in the best interest of the organization as a whole.
Especially in a religious organization, you're going to have people who passionately disagree with a policy, because we're doing this as a religious practice.
As the head of an organization, you have to strike the best balance you can, while considering the best interests of the organization as a whole, while accepting that some people who disagree, may just leave in a huff, and there's nothing you can do about that.
There's no way to run a large organization and get a 100% agreement, of even some of the founding members.
You just have to make the best decisions you can, and move on.

Some people profoundly disagreed with some decisions, but that's just the way it is, you have to move on.

You can't just try to accommodate everybody, because then you never get anywhere.
Some people can be very unreasonable too.

Imagine trying to get everyone on Dharmawheel to agree on everything.

And when people are investing time and money and religious effort into a thing, if two people have very deep differences in views on a thing, if they don't reconcile their differences in views, then those two people will eventually part ways. It's just the way it is.

The OBC, Shasta, Throssel, and Jiyu-Kennett (in her case posthumously now), were and are all recognized and respected as genuine and authentic Soto Zen practice.

Jiyu-Kennett's qualification to teach was confirmed not only by her own teacher, Kohō Zenji, who was a highly respected Zen master himself, but also by Sawaki Kōdō Rōshi (Butsu Kojo Rōshi, 1880–1965) who was considered to be perhaps the foremost meditation master of his time in Japan.

The OBC is highly respected within the Soto Zen world, and fully recognized as genuine and authentic Soto Zen practice.

Here are Nonin Chowaney's views for instance:
Image
by Nonin on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:35 pm

I've visited Shasta Abbey more than once, and I've found the practice there genuine and authentic Soto Zen Buddhist practice. I've also found the monks and nuns (nuncs is probably a better and more inclusive term) to be, on balance, very welcoming and kind. I've also found some of them to be extremely wise and compassionate, for some have been practicing for many, many years.

I've recommended that my students either visit the place or sign up for a practice period, and a couple of them have done so and have returned for more. They agree with my assessment of the place, the people, and the practice there.

Also, guests are and always have been welcome at Shasta, and senior monks from there have participated in Soto Zen Buddhist Association events and processes, so the place is not as insular as people may think.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Shasta Abbey to anyone looking to experience authentic Soto Zen Buddhist monastic practice.

Hands palm-to-palm,

Nonin

http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=9016&hilit=OBC

Eido Frances Carney, also shares this view, and she is a former president of the Soto Zen Buddhist Association (SZBA).

She sends her disciples to train at Shasta Abbey to do their monastic training. I know, because I've spoken with them personally on this.

Not to mention Soto Shu in Japan, also fully recognizes the OBC as being fully authentic and genuine Soto Zen practice.

So while it's certainly fair to have differing opinions about personal preference of teaching style and whether the OBC and/or Jiyu-Kennett's teaching works for everybody (which I certainly don't think it does), it is not fair, nor accurate, to accuse them, or her, of not being qualified, or authentic.
They most certainly are.
And very well respected.

In Gassho,

Sara H.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
User avatar
Sara H
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: On Hiatus from Dharmawheel.

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:35 am

It is not necessary that a cult be illegitimate. A group can have legitimate practices, be part of recognised lineage, etc... and still act like a cult. Illiegitimacy is only one basis by which a cult can be defined. (cf previous definitions)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 9988
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:01 pm

Some excerpts from Strathern's post:
When I arrived at Shasta I found it superficially the same, however at the centre there was a clique around Jiyu that had started to practice with her a kind of massage called Jin Shin (I believe also referred to at Shasta as mudras and flows) that she had started and said that had been instrumental in her having a third kensho, though I don't exactly recall her second. The result of Jin Shin was that Jiyu and a number of others had visions and experienced former lives. I did not see the relevance of this to Soto Zen, or any Zen for that matter, I had sat with Sochu Suzuki Roshi's group for a number of years before joining Jiyu. But, whatever, who was I to know so I threw myself back into things and took the advice I had given to others on a number of occasions - that is to set a time limit at some point in the future and to suspend disbelief and judgement till then and see how I felt at that later time. However as time went on the experiences became more and more outlandish. I believe it was Eko who had been Jesus, others including Jiyu had been, Bhodidharma, St John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and any number of inmates and guards from German WWII concentration camps.
...
A few months later I received a letter from one of the monks who had decided to go over to Shasta saying that she repudiated me because I had lied to her about what was happening at Shasta. I later learnt that the inner clique at Shasta had decided to say that I had lied because whilst I had said that those at Shasta believed that they had experiences of previous lives as Jesus, Bhodidharma, etc. this was not true because they had had previous lives as Jesus, Bhodidharma, etc.This level of casuistry confirmed my belief that Shasta had gone down a wrong path, which it looked as if it would be difficult to turn back and sadly that seems to true. A further confirmation saddened me and told of how badly things had gone wrong even at my beloved Throssel when I read a published history of Throssel and its founding in which I was not mentioned at all. If you go to Germany you will find Hitler and all his lesser cronies mentioned in the history books despite the difficulty and guilt this causes, but if you had gone to Hitler's Germany you would have found many people who written out of the history books. This is standard practice where they fear and cannot face the truth.
...
The real tragedy is the number of people that have been damaged by this. Those who where there at the time and followed down the path that she led seem to have been caught ion the same trap believing that whatever they are doing is true training and brooking no criticism to the contrary. There are those who have managed to slip through the holes in the net of Mara that was woven and hopefully in the long run they will prevail and true training become the norm again.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Sara H » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:42 pm

I don't have any problem with somebody having past lives come up.

I've had enough come up myself to take them seriously.

These things can and do come up in training occasionally.

Sometimes, they can come up very intensely for a bit. I don't have any problem with that.

I've had karma from someone who died in vietnam. War karma from, my own experience, seems to be very common, as is karma from religious abuse.

Executions, I've had a few of those come up, and some pretty ghastly things as well.

We don't like to talk about these things in the west, because it goes against our view of more secular Zen.

But these things actually are real, and actually do happen.

The important thing is not to be fascinated by them. They can be very intense if something comes up, but they can't actually harm you, they are just memories.

If Eko got the karma of Jesus (or somebody like Jesus, after all, the Romans nailed plenty of people to crosses), well, you know somebody had to inherit karma from that. You can't nail somebody alive and essentially torture a human to death without that getting passed on. I can't speak for Eko, I don't know whether he did or not.

But if he didn't, somebody sure did.

Somebody, (probably several somebodies) has Hitler's karma.

It's just the way it works.

In Buddhism, it's not so important who's karma you may have inherited, (and whether they may or may not have been a famous person: celebrities make karma too) so much as whether you try and clean it up.

The Buddha talked at great length about his past lives, and sometimes Zen masters like Keizan or Rev. Jiyu-Kennett feel comfortable talking about theirs.

Personally, I'm very grateful: information on this subject is very scarce, and so when I've had things come up in my own sitting, it's nice to know I wasn't the only one.

But you know, if you're a scientifically minded person, and you think "oh that's all bullshit" like Strathern apparently did, as he's now on a university science faculty, well, he may have a more positivist, or scientific materialist world-view, and so think all the more colorful aspects of religion are just bunk.

It's one thing to hear about past lives in a book. And say "ok, that makes a nice pretty story, maybe it's meant to inspire, or have metaphorical value, etc."

It's another thing to actually have them come up and realize that they are real. That, can kindof freak people out.

That's why it's good to talk about these things.

In Gassho,

Sara H.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
User avatar
Sara H
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: On Hiatus from Dharmawheel.

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby shel » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:19 pm

Sara H wrote:Somebody, (probably several somebodies) has Hitler's karma.

It's just the way it works.


You, like everyone else, don't actually know how it works. All we have is some vague notion of 'causality', in regard to rebirth or reincarnation.
shel
 
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:00 pm

I don't have any problem with somebody having past lives come up.

I've had enough come up myself to take them seriously.


When these things "come up", we need to speak with a realized teacher. We cannot only rely on appearances, even if they seem to arise in a state of meditation.

In terms of past lives, I've given up on tracing back, as Shakespeare, Guinevere, Cleopatra, Napoleon, Genghis Khan and Jimi Hendrix have already been claimed. So better to focus on trying to cultivate something less sexy, like developing the wish to be liberated from samsara or compassion for sentient beings.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
JKhedrup
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am
Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Jikan » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:03 pm

Third kensho?

I suspect that some of the distinctive teachings of the OBC, particularly those that emerged through the late 1970s and onward, might reflect the unique circumstances of Jiyu Kennett's health. She was diabetic, and had difficulty managing her illness (you can find out more on this at the OBC Connect board if you search for it). Uncontrolled diabetes produces all manner of visions, does it not? To me this is an open question.

I bring this up because I wonder how these visionary teachings work (what their content is), how they may represent or depart from traditional Soto Zen teachings, and so on. I am not familiar with the visionary mode as a form of authority in the Zen world. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5450
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Huifeng » Wed May 01, 2013 1:19 am

While I don't know the details of this particular case, a modern tendency--led by the likes of Freud and others--to turn spiritual states into a kind of pathology, eg. Jesus was epilectic, the Prophet was schizophrenic, etc., doesn't seem like a serious or valid attitude, a genuine attempt to understand what such experiences entail. My 2c worth.

~~ Huifeng
User avatar
Huifeng
 
Posts: 1471
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:51 am

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Sara H » Wed May 01, 2013 10:09 am

I think I have to post one more post on this.

I was sitting with it in lieu of the comments after my last, and so I think it wouldn't be better if I chose not to.

I'm really trying not to, and leave, but I think it's good to do. For this last post. I think it would just leave misinformation if I didn't.

I'm going to play it by ear for this thread.


JKhedrup wrote:When these things "come up", we need to speak with a realized teacher. We cannot only rely on appearances, even if they seem to arise in a state of meditation.

:good:
This is very true.
I agree with it, and I do it myself when these things come up for me.
It's very important to talk to a qualified Buddhist teacher on this when these things happen.

Jikan wrote:I bring this up because I wonder how these visionary teachings work (what their content is), how they may represent or depart from traditional Soto Zen teachings, and so on. I am not familiar with the visionary mode as a form of authority in the Zen world. Please correct me if I am mistaken.


You actually are mistaken Jikan. ( I mean that gently) Keizan (one of our great Soto masters after Dogen) had a great many such experiences.

Past lives were and are not just experienced by her. A great many monks, laypeople and former monks and laypeople have also experienced them. Including people on that board. Across many years, and currently. And historically.

Kyogen (whom I know you respect) also has had them.

Most people don't have diabetes.

I certainly don't.

My spouse (who has also had such experiences), and I also don't live in Mt. Shasta.

Experiences as vivid as hers (RM Jiyu's) are rare, but they are not unheard of in Zen. Keizan's accounts are actually published in Japanese.

It's not just the historic Buddha who experienced past lives, and no one else has.

This is a part of Buddhist practice.

Since I know you respect Kyogen and Dharma Rain, might I suggest asking him about his past lives?

There's more to Buddhism than just ethics and philosophy and seated meditation.
(though meditation is not separate from this)


Last thing on this for 'spiritual safety' reasons.

If someone does have something like this come up, they absolutely should speak to a qualified Zen master or Buddhist master of their linage of practice.

These things can't hurt you in and of themselves, if you sit with them, but it's very important to not get blown off-center, by them.

They are just memories. Remember, YOU ARE NOT THEM, What's left of them, is a part of you. But it's very important to remember that you are not them. Just have compassion for them, and love them, and don't judge them. And it's a very good idea to be able to talk to a qualified priest or monk that you trust.

I think that's about all I'm going to say on this.
(we'll see, but I wish you all well)

In Gassho,

Sara.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
User avatar
Sara H
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: On Hiatus from Dharmawheel.

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed May 01, 2013 4:58 pm

ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Jikan » Wed May 01, 2013 5:14 pm

Ah, you beat me to the Cosmic Buddha one. This one's also a hit:

http://obcconnect.forumotion.net/t140-k ... of-destiny

And apropos of Jiyu Kennett's self-care issues and premature death due to out-of-control diabetes

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=12597

I know that Sara is keenly interested in preventing suicide-by-practice or neglect by Buddhist practitioners. I know she's posted in this thread since she began the process of making a dramatic exit. Perhaps she might also be interested in commenting on the question of whether Jiyu Kennett's death was, by Sara's own standards, an actual suicide? (as distinct from the "suicides" she cites among Tendai practitioners who mysteriously fail to die and lack the intention of self-harm)
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5450
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 01, 2013 5:54 pm

Huifeng wrote:While I don't know the details of this particular case, a modern tendency--led by the likes of Freud and others--to turn spiritual states into a kind of pathology, eg. Jesus was epilectic, the Prophet was schizophrenic, etc., doesn't seem like a serious or valid attitude, a genuine attempt to understand what such experiences entail. My 2c worth.

~~ Huifeng
Why is it that your 2c worth are always worth so much more (at least 4c)! :smile:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 9988
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby pueraeternus » Wed May 01, 2013 5:59 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Josh Baran tells an interesting story here:
http://obcconnect.forumotion.net/t133-t ... hree-dimes

Kennett and the "Cosmic Buddha":
http://obcconnect.forumotion.net/t173-t ... -said-what


Jikan wrote:Ah, you beat me to the Cosmic Buddha one. This one's also a hit:

http://obcconnect.forumotion.net/t140-k ... of-destiny


:shock:
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica
User avatar
pueraeternus
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Sara H » Wed May 01, 2013 6:49 pm

('ll keep replying on this thread as long is it seems good.
I know, I know, I said I was leaving, and I still think it's good to do so, but I think there's a need here I can actually address. We'll see.)

It's funny that it never occurs to Josh, the that the whole point of that teaching might have been that since she knew he was leaving, she used his "rebellious streak" to show him what three possible negative outcomes of his life could be, and so helped caution him to be extra vigilant against them, and tried to fuel that vigilance with his rebelliousness against her. (Whatever works). Indeed, he seems quite proud that he proved her wrong, and it's possible that that was the whole idea.

People who are ex monks or even just people with some spiritual experience certainly have ended up in some pretty bad situations.

I had my first kensho when I was 18, but since that time, since for a long time I didn't have any spiritual guidance or anybody I could talk to about it, or help me with my training, I ended up in jail twice, as well as homeless three times. Years later now, my life and training is stable, but I went through hell for a while getting there. I learned very much from a school of hard knocks, combined with a very good, wise, and patient teacher, when I finally found someone to teach me.

That's no joke. I had essentially stopped training for a while after my kensho, because I didn't know how, or how to develop it. It wasn't until later that I was able to establish a practice, and be able to talk to spiritual teachers on a regular basis, and even then, it wasn't until I found someone who could really teach me that my life began stabilizing.

For whatever reason, it's a real enough phenomenon, that it's worth cautioning people about, even if in really scary or dramatic terms, out of compassion for them and to try to prevent it.

It might be, because all those three things are essentially, "hitting bottom" in our society. Which, when on the one hand if you were doing some really good training before, there is always the tendency (because people tend to oscillate back and forth between opposites and extremes) that someone might get off-track or get off-center and sortof flip to the other extreme and "crash." This happened to me.

The worst that could happen in such a scenario by her cautioning him about such things, was that he could have had things happen, in which case, she let him know that if they did happen, she was willing to be there for him, and help him out. If such things had actually occurred he'd be pretty grateful that he had a friend who was there for him.

And that at best, if he didn't, then his rebellion and determination to "prove her wrong" could only help keep him out of trouble, by fueling a caution and determination against those things.

Either way, considering it may have been her last chance to try and teach him something, it seems like it may have been good to say, to try and help him be a success, in whatever way that was good for him to do.

the Cosmic Buddha, is just one way of referring to the Eternal, the Buddha Nature, etc, etc, etc.

You can use any name for it you want. Cosmic Buddha strikes me as being more comfortable to some people who may have come out of Abrahamic backgrounds and still feel weird about that, then using terms like "God" or the Eternal.

There's always a limitation to whatever word or term you use to refer to the Unborn, or Buddha Nature.

In our household, we generally use the term "Eternal" for offhand references to it, but Cosmic Buddha works just fine and may have been a preference of hers. Though apparently Josh didn't like it.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
User avatar
Sara H
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: On Hiatus from Dharmawheel.

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed May 01, 2013 7:22 pm

Yeah..maybe, but really when it gets to the point of asking a Cosmic Buddha questions in order to make decisions, whatever one's cultural conditioning, this is a kind of dualism and/or monotheism and is far enough away from pretty much any Buddhist thought to deserve real scrutiny IMO, I wouldn't even say it's "wrong", but surely it's a far cry from Buddhadharma, much less Zen, right?

It's my impression (and definitely my experience) that weird stuff happens to anyone with a real practice constantly, for the most part dwelling on it is sure to be not only unhealthy, but a sure way to put yourself deeper and deeper into the very bubble you are trying to see outside of, the more one assigns concrete, substantial, non-provisional 'meaning' to things happening in meditation, the more someone is constructing something, rather than cutting through it...it seems to me. You don't hear many people talk about their experiences of boredom, malaise, or ordinariness in mediation, and yet - these are no less important than their supposed revelations about past lives etc.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Wed May 01, 2013 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2750
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed May 01, 2013 7:22 pm

Sara H wrote:the Cosmic Buddha, is just one way of referring to the Eternal, the Buddha Nature, etc, etc, etc.


Excerpts from Baran's post on the "Cosmic Buddha", which I've just started to read:
In 1976, "The Cosmic Buddha" told us not to vote for Jimmy Carter for President, not to buy a Ford or Chevy truck and assured us that a scam artist was going to facilitate a one million dollar donation to Shasta Abbey.

Well, "The Cosmic Buddha" didn't tell me this directly, he told Kennett this because she was asking him questions and for advice frequently, many times each day, and getting answers - and then passing these instructions on to us.


Kennett was consulting the Cosmic Buddha many times per day.

(At one point, as the president of the Abbey, i was renewing the fire insurance. And she told me not to do it. We don't need insurance she said. Buying insurance meant that I doubted the protection and power of the Cosmic Buddha. Don't buy insurance she said. I ignored her advice and did it anyway.)


It seems like the Eternal, the Buddha Nature, etc, etc, etc. has many interesting opinions.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Sara H » Wed May 01, 2013 8:01 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
It seems like the Eternal, the Buddha Nature, etc, etc, etc. has many interesting opinions.


Well that's what you should be doing.

Sitting still with it, and listing to the 'voice' of the Eternal in your sitting.

If you sit still with it, and the sense you get is that it's good to vote for Jimmy Carter, you vote for Jimmy Carter.

It it's to vote for Ronald Regan, then you vote for Ronald Regan.

You absolutely should be listening to it, to that "gut feeling", or intuition that we all have.

If you want to call it the "voice of the Cosmic Buddha" instead of "the sense of the Buddha Nature within oneself."

There's nothing wrong with doing that.

Everyone has it though, and it doesn't always add up to the same thing to do.

If one persons sense is that it's not good for them to do something, and your own sense is that it is good, there's nothing wrong with that.

What's good for one, is not necessarily good for another person.

Now, I really have to stop typing on here and get to class.

I wish you all well.

In Gassho,

Sara H.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
User avatar
Sara H
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: On Hiatus from Dharmawheel.

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Sara H » Wed May 01, 2013 8:16 pm

It's embarrassing to me that I said I was going to leave, and then keep posting stuff,
but I think some things are more important than my own pride and ego.

This is an excerpt of some comments by Rev. Master Daishin Morgan, the Abbot of Throssel Hole, in response to that thread:

I was at Throssel when Mark Strathern left in 1976, he had ordained me in 1974. I went to Shasta from Throssel in 1977 and stayed there until 1982 before returning to help run Throssel. While I was at Shasta I had many conversations with Rev. Master Jiyu about her experiences. She was not claiming to be Jesus, John of the Cross or Bodhidharma and neither was anybody else. Yes, there was a lot about past lives at the start of my time there and that is something that more training and digestion has since modified considerably. I was also around when Josh Baran’s departure was discussed. I cannot vouch for what went on between him and Rev. Master Jiyu but I can say how she spoke of him after he left. She was very saddened by his departure and upset that he understood the three dimes in the way he does. As she expressed it to me, her intention was to say "please keep in touch" in a light hearted way; it was not at all to predict dire consequences in the way he has taken it. I can understand how, in the midst of the complex emotions of leaving, he might have seen it otherwise. But then he does seem quite bitter in his condemnation. Rev. Master Jiyu recognised the three dimes had been a mistake in the light of how it was taken and did not do it that way again.


...

There is a pattern in how some of the key participants on this site see Rev. Master. She was fine, maybe a bit tough, during the times when they were learning the fundamentals and while they received the affirmations that she was not slow to offer. She however always made the point that training does not end there. When she shook their trees and asked them to let go of their positions or whatever they still held on to - asking them to go on deeper into the letting go and then that seems to have been the moment she became a demon for them. I don’t argue that her methods were always right, nor do I claim she did not make mistakes in how she sometimes saw things, but on the fundamental level she could spot someone holding on to their ego at a hundred paces, I speak from much personal experience. At those times she would not back off and you could twist and turn on the hook all you wanted but she would not budge an inch. That could seem very unreasonable, and ever more so if you lost the point of what this is all really about. She had the courage to be a good teacher and like all good teachers she did not succeed in helping everyone, it depends as much on the disciple. This is a very demanding business.


Now, I really am done and off to class.

In Gassho,

Sara H.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
User avatar
Sara H
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: On Hiatus from Dharmawheel.

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby Jikan » Wed May 01, 2013 8:43 pm

Speaking for myself: I'm happy to have you participating here Sara as long as you like.

***

Speaking as a moderator: Discussions on the traditional descriptions of the "Cosmic Buddha" or Adi-Buddha is best done here:

viewtopic.php?f=77&t=12535

This thread is a good place to discuss the particular and evidently distinctive revelations of "Cosmic Buddha" in circulation in the OBC.

Thanks.

Homage to the Great Buddha Mahavairocana!
Jikan
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5450
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Order of Buddhist Contemplatives

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed May 01, 2013 9:08 pm

Sara H wrote:It's embarrassing to me that I said I was going to leave, and then keep posting stuff,
but I think some things are more important than my own pride and ego.

Irony alert.
:roll:
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Zen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

>