RuShi ?

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Re: RuShi ?

Postby Aemilius » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:24 pm

heart wrote:
Aemilius wrote:Chögyam Trungpa had this great idea of "Dharma without credentials", but the fact is that Dharma is mostly or only about credentials. What we can say is that teaching and communication of Dharma take place, informally and with all elaborate formalities. Once it has happened, i.e. you have understood something, then it is very unlikely that you will ever acknowledge how and from whom you heard it. You will go to enormous lengths to create the image that you have heard it from some real credential source, some real credential authority. This is how the lineages come into being. The images of lineages do exist, I think, they have some use, they are not useless. Truth is beyond comprehension.
Then there are the evolutionary tendencies, which means that a particular ethnic population creates the lineages. This is to say that all or most teachings are put into the names of people of that particular ethnic lineage, or into the names of powerfull families within it. Population is an ethnic lineage. Dharma has another purpose than promoting a particular human population or a particular family-lineage, which is why the real Dharma-lineage loses to the evolutionary forces, and it is then replaced by a hereditary lineage.


I do believe in lineages actually and my Guru has several lineages to uphold and one of them is his family lineage. If you read "Blazing Splendor" you will find out a lot about that particular lineage and how the transmission is done. I also found Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoches "Brilliant Moon" very touching. In my opinion there is definitely a transmission that is reflected by the official lineage and it is of great value. There might be people outside Tibet becoming lineage-holders in time, I heard there are a few already, but it is none of my business. I am just a simple practitioner. If only Tibetans can keep the lineage it is ok as long as it is genuine.

/magnus



What is "keeping the lineage "? What do you say when you say it ? To me it sounds like some authoritarian & army-like system. In a Sravakayana sutra Shakyamuni says that he is not the leader of the Sangha, Sangha consists of free individuals, who teach freely those whom they think are receptive.

If we take for example the Nyungne, that is being done, and has been done, in Europe in many countries, like Hungary, Sweden, France, Germany, Danmark, etc... and there are several persons with vast experience in it. Do you call it freedom, if some hitherto unkonwn person is then brought to Europe, -what ever his ethnic origin may happpen to be-, and who is then declared to be the Lineage-holder of Nyungne!! And because you are a tantrika you will believe anything and everything that is told to you ????
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Re: RuShi ?

Postby narraboth » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:06 pm

Aemilius wrote: What is "keeping the lineage "? What do you say when you say it ? To me it sounds like some authoritarian & army-like system. In a Sravakayana sutra Shakyamuni says that he is not the leader of the Sangha, Sangha consists of free individuals, who teach freely those whom they think are receptive.


I think to keep a lineage is to know most knowledge of a lineage, to practice it constantly, have gained results from it and to be able to teach others in a profound and pure way.

Sangha can teach freely, but people can't teach what they don't really know. (that's the problem nowadays isn't it? people claim that they know this and that when they do not) There is no army-like power in buddhism, but knowledge itself is power. I am sure in early sangha, common monks naturally bowed to and requested teaching from Arhats, like how they did to Buddha.

Nyung-nye is widely spreaded, so there should be many 'lineage-holders' of it. However for totally 34 volumes of chokling tersa, if there is one in the world who understand it and can do it the best, what's wrong to call him a lineage holder?
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Re: RuShi ?

Postby Josef » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:17 pm

The importance of authentic teachers goes all the way back to the Buddha himself and the Pali Nikaya's. The whole "be a light unto yourself" nonsense is way over used and misinterpreted.

The Alagaddupama Sutta discusses the importance of the teacher and his credentials by illustrating the foolishness of those who are unqualified attempting to teach.
Lineage and authenticity is absolutely essential in all nine yana's.
Last edited by Josef on Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RuShi ?

Postby heart » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:37 pm

Aemilius wrote:What is "keeping the lineage "? What do you say when you say it ? To me it sounds like some authoritarian & army-like system. In a Sravakayana sutra Shakyamuni says that he is not the leader of the Sangha, Sangha consists of free individuals, who teach freely those whom they think are receptive.

If we take for example the Nyungne, that is being done, and has been done, in Europe in many countries, like Hungary, Sweden, France, Germany, Danmark, etc... and there are several persons with vast experience in it. Do you call it freedom, if some hitherto unkonwn person is then brought to Europe, -what ever his ethnic origin may happpen to be-, and who is then declared to be the Lineage-holder of Nyungne!! And because you are a tantrika you will believe anything and everything that is told to you ????


Keeping the lineage in Vajrayana means to first have the realization and then by your teacher being forced to expound the teachings through empowerment's, commentaries and instructions . If you don't have realization you can't be a lineage holder in Vajrayana. The reason for this is that during the empowerment ritual the Buddha nature should be introduced to the students. If you haven't realized it you can't introduce it. Having a lot of experience in Nyungye is of course wonderful but it doesn't make you a qualified teacher.
I know that my own teachers and in particular my root-Guru do have the quality to be able to make you recognize the natural state and this is the basis for my devotion. I am not exactly ashamed about that devotion.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: RuShi ?

Postby muni » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:24 pm

heart wrote:

I am not exactly ashamed about that devotion.

/magnus


:bow: Great power.
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Re: RuShi ?

Postby Luke » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:36 pm

Aemilius wrote: What is "keeping the lineage "? What do you say when you say it ? To me it sounds like some authoritarian & army-like system.

Would you want a doctor operating on you who didn't know very much about medicine and who just played a doctor on TV? Of course not, and this is why doctors have to pass many exams to become certified.

In Buddhism, it's not quite so simple, because becoming a lineage holder is based upon having enough knowledge of the vajrayana traditition you have been taught to gain your lama's approval. This may seem subjective because it's not just based on some exam, but great masters can clearly see who has real attainment and who is faking.

Of course, as in any human endeavor, there are sometimes fakes and troublemakes, but usually they get weeded out quickly by the Vajrayana community.

Having lineage holders might seem unfair to a westerner because the vast majority of lineage holders are still Tibetan. But this doesn't imply that the system is wrong or unfair (the religion does come from their culture, after all). This just highlights the need for more Buddhist institutions in the west where interested westerners can learn the complete path of the Vajrayana teachings in English (and in other western languages) at a very high level of quality. May there be a Nalanda University in every country of the world!
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Re: RuShi ?

Postby catmoon » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:18 pm

Of course there is a problem with the lineage system that is obvious to anyone outside of Buddhism. If a major error in practice is made, it will be propagated through the lineage system with no hope of correction. Of course the Buddhist thinks the system is foolproof. Catholics think the Pope is foolproof too.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
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Re: RuShi ?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:39 pm

catmoon wrote:Of course there is a problem with the lineage system that is obvious to anyone outside of Buddhism. If a major error in practice is made, it will be propagated through the lineage system with no hope of correction. Of course the Buddhist thinks the system is foolproof. Catholics think the Pope is foolproof too.


Well, such Buddhists need only look at the Buddha's own teachings to see that the scriptural Dharma is impermanent. It's not for no reason that 996 other buddhas are supposed to appear in this universe. But, I don't personally think there are quite yet so few masters with realization, or genuine tulkus undergoing proper training, that charlatans predominate... So I don't think the days are nearly upon us when the danger of "major errors in practice being propagated through the lineage system with no hope of correction" is very real. Not for sufficiently educated people following very widely known and esteemed lamas.
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