The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pero » Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:42 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:...That's all. I did not intend to appear to be discouraging retreat or questioning its value lol.


:rolling:

heart wrote:Pero, I think you have to realize that the four mind turnings, which I assume is what you mean with the "four awarenesses", and the seven mind trainings from the Vima Nyingthik is just that, Ngondro. Ngondro means just preliminary practices.


Oh I know. It's just that from years of reading online discussions it seems to me that prostrations and the rest (what I meant with Ngondro there) are usually emphasized while there is little mention of mind trainings. Though I suppose it could be I just didn't notice because of not paying much attention to them myself.

...
Renunciation is actually a key point in Dzogchen practice.


Yeah, I don't disagree.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Dharmaswede » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:45 am

Dear all,

Where do Shamatha/Shine and Vipassana fit into the scheme/s?

Thank you.

Yours in Dharma,

Jens
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby heart » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:58 am

Dharmaswede wrote:Dear all,

Where do Shamatha/Shine and Vipassana fit into the scheme/s?

Thank you.

Yours in Dharma,

Jens


Hi Jens,

Shamatha and Viphassana in the way they are practiced in the Mahamudra tradition is not a part of the Dzogchen tradition. However there are some practices that have been, in various commentaries, considered to be the same. But the Dzogchen tradition is not so heterogeneous as the Mahamudra tradition and there might be some traditions doing things differently.

/magnus
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Luke » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:35 am

Dharmaswede wrote:Dear all,

Where do Shamatha/Shine and Vipassana fit into the scheme/s?

Using the word "vipassana" in the broad sense of "the stage of Buddhist meditation which is about reflecting on the true nature of one's mind"--which can be any one of a variety of methods--,and not in the limited sense of "what Jack Kornfield and similar modern Theravada teachers practice", we can say that the two stages of deity yoga correspond to shamatha and vipassana.

The generation stage is shamatha because the elaborate image of the deity and his/her mantra are the objects you're focusing on.

The completion stage is vipassana because you dissolve the previous image into emptiness and meditate on the nature of mind itself.

All five schools (Jonang!) practice both the generation and completion stages, even if they don't do more typical sorts of "vipassana."
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Dharmaswede » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:05 pm

Dear Heart & Luke,

Thank you for the fertile and clarifying replies, great food for thought. Very much appreciated!

Yours in Dharma,

Jens
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby heart » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:21 pm

Luke wrote:
Dharmaswede wrote:Dear all,

Where do Shamatha/Shine and Vipassana fit into the scheme/s?

Using the word "vipassana" in the broad sense of "the stage of Buddhist meditation which is about reflecting on the true nature of one's mind"--which can be any one of a variety of methods--,and not in the limited sense of "what Jack Kornfield and similar modern Theravada teachers practice", we can say that the two stages of deity yoga correspond to shamatha and vipassana.

The generation stage is shamatha because the elaborate image of the deity and his/her mantra are the objects you're focusing on.

The completion stage is vipassana because you dissolve the previous image into emptiness and meditate on the nature of mind itself.

All five schools (Jonang!) practice both the generation and completion stages, even if they don't do more typical sorts of "vipassana."


Luke, I am sorry but your understanding of development and competition is not correct except if you are a beginner. It is impossible to practice the development stage properly without having an experience of the natural state. I wrote about the three samdhis in an other thread, perhaps you should read it.

/magnus
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Luke » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:33 pm

heart wrote:Luke, I am sorry but your understanding of development and competition is not correct except if you are a beginner.

Well, I am a beginner and I assume so is Dharmaswede.

heart wrote:It is impossible to practice the development stage properly without having an experience of the natural state. I wrote about the three samdhis in an other thread, perhaps you should read it.

Okay, interesting. Which thread are you refering to?

In any case, I always see in books that they say that the generation stage is shamatha and that the completion stage is vipassana. Perhaps there's more to it than that, but that's what I always read.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby heart » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:58 am

Luke wrote:
heart wrote:Luke, I am sorry but your understanding of development and competition is not correct except if you are a beginner.

Well, I am a beginner and I assume so is Dharmaswede.

heart wrote:It is impossible to practice the development stage properly without having an experience of the natural state. I wrote about the three samdhis in an other thread, perhaps you should read it.

Okay, interesting. Which thread are you refering to?

In any case, I always see in books that they say that the generation stage is shamatha and that the completion stage is vipassana. Perhaps there's more to it than that, but that's what I always read.


Hi Luke,

Well, I know Jens (Dharmaswede) and he is not a beginner exactly.
Which books are you referring to where generation stage is described as shamatha?
I wrote a little on this subject in the "Rainbow Body - Why?" thread.
I am this weekend doing a teaching on the development stage with Tulku Dakpa Rinpoche. He makes the point that as all inner tantra development stage depends on the three samdhis the practitioner need not only to have understood all the yanas below but also have a taste of the natural state. You can read the same in Tulku Urgyens books. Somewhere Tulku Urgyens says something like "the development stage is not pretending it is to realize how things actually are".
If the development stage was just arising from the mind it would just be lies, the development stage have to arise from rigpa. This is a big subject actually.

/magnus
/magnus
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:23 pm

Since Nyingma tantras teach the three samadhis, I would say Nyingma generation stage is more like the union of shamatha and vipashyana. One is realistically going to begin with a conceptual approach to the three samadhis, drawing from one's Madhyamaka learning and briefly contemplating the first samadhi, then the second, and then the third and having everything arise from the third, and only eventually will one be able to approach them at once from rigpa. But even with that beginner's conceptual approach, one should always have in mind the empty nature of the visualization, sound, and thoughts during the sadhana. Now, something I'm curious about is how the Sarma schools approach generation stage, because it's my understanding that the three samadhis approach is only a Nyingma approach. How do Sarmapas approach it?
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pero » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:28 pm

heart wrote:I am this weekend doing a teaching on the development stage with Tulku Dakpa Rinpoche. He makes the point that as all inner tantra development stage depends on the three samdhis the practitioner need not only to have understood all the yanas below but also have a taste of the natural state. You can read the same in Tulku Urgyens books. Somewhere Tulku Urgyens says something like "the development stage is not pretending it is to realize how things actually are".


I'm not sure how common this view is though, since TUR was a shengtongpa.

If the development stage was just arising from the mind it would just be lies, the development stage have to arise from rigpa. This is a big subject actually.


TUR himself says that you can't achieve enlightenment through it alone, so it is a "lie".

In general the impression I got from reading his books is that TUR is teaching Dzogchen to Tantric practitioners. That's why he says things like the deity develops from the natural state. But you forget that not everyone of us has the capacity to understand the natural state. IMO you can practice deity transformation without understanding it. If it would not be so there wouldn't be three inner tantras, there'd be only one.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:43 pm

Pero wrote:
I'm not sure how common this view is though, since TUR was a shengtongpa.


The three samadhis are clearly taught in the root Mahayoga tantra - the Guhyagarbha - and in every commentary I'v every encountered. However, as I mentioned in a previous post, there is a provisional, conceptual way to approach it until one has knowledge of the natural state. But, of course, it is obviously going to be more authentic a practice for one who has clear recognition of rigpa. I think that's what is being said.

Pero wrote:TUR himself says that you can't achieve enlightenment through it alone, so it is a "lie".

In general the impression I got from reading his books is that TUR is teaching Dzogchen to Tantric practitioners. That's why he says things like the deity develops from the natural state. But you forget that not everyone of us has the capacity to understand the natural state. IMO you can practice deity transformation without understanding it. If it would not be so there wouldn't be three inner tantras, there'd be only one.


I think when he says that you can't achieve enlightenment through development stage alone, that means that the development stage must always be in union with the completion stage, i.e. one must at the very least maintain the correct conceptual view of emptiness during the generation stage. All Nyingma generation stage sadhanas begin by (sometimes cryptically in shorthand) referencing the three samadhis. Also, the three inner tantras in Nyingma are all very connected. It's not as if Mahayoga and Dzogchen are so separate. For instance, Dzogchen is taught in at least one chapter of the Guhyagarbha. Also, an important Dzogchen tantra (whose name escapes me but which I could look up at some point) states that Mahayoga is the ground, Anuyoga is the path, and Dzogchen is the fruition. Also, since the 4th empowerment is present in all inner tantric empowerments and in Nyingma it is the direct introduction to rigpa (and in some Nyingma empowerments it is more lengthy and elaborate and quite obviously pure Dzogchen), a recipient has received the transmission to enable him/her to recognize rigpa. For a time, though, one is naturally going to have to approach the three samadhis from a conceptual, dialectic type approach like I mentioned in my last post.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pero » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:00 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Pero wrote:
I'm not sure how common this view is though, since TUR was a shengtongpa.


The three samadhis are clearly taught in the root Mahayoga tantra - the Guhyagarbha - and in every commentary I'v every encountered. However, as I mentioned in a previous post, there is a provisional, conceptual way to approach it until one has knowledge of the natural state. But, of course, it is obviously going to be more authentic a practice for one who has clear recognition of rigpa. I think that's what is being said.

Pero wrote:TUR himself says that you can't achieve enlightenment through it alone, so it is a "lie".

In general the impression I got from reading his books is that TUR is teaching Dzogchen to Tantric practitioners. That's why he says things like the deity develops from the natural state. But you forget that not everyone of us has the capacity to understand the natural state. IMO you can practice deity transformation without understanding it. If it would not be so there wouldn't be three inner tantras, there'd be only one.


I think when he says that you can't achieve enlightenment through development stage alone, that means that the development stage must always be in union with the completion stage, i.e. one must maintain the authentic view of emptiness during the generation stage. All Nyingma generation stage sadhanas begin by (sometimes cryptically in shorthand) referencing the three samadhis. Also, the three inner tantras in Nyingma are all very connected. It's not as if Mahayoga and Dzogchen are so separate. For instance, Dzogchen is taught in at least one chapter of the Guhyagarbha. Also, an important Dzogchen tantra (whose name escapes me but which I could look up at some point) states that Mahayoga is the ground, Anuyoga is the path, and Dzogchen is the fruition. Also, since the 4th empowerment is present in all inner tantric empowerments and in Nyingma it is the direct introduction to rigpa (and in some Nyingma empowerments it is more lengthy and elaborate and quite obviously pure Dzogchen), a recipient has received the transmission to enable him/her to recognize rigpa. For a time, though, one is naturally going to have to approach the three samadhis from a conceptual, dialectic type approach like I mentioned in my last post.


Ah, that makes more sense, I can't disagree with any of that. However up there I wasn't reffering to the three samadhis, but to transforming into deities being actually realizing how things really are. I don't believe this is necessarily true in Dzogchen.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:04 pm

Pero wrote: I don't believe this is necessarily true in Dzogchen.
I'm not sure I follow you here. Could you elaborate a bit?
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pero » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:41 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Pero wrote: I don't believe this is necessarily true in Dzogchen.
I'm not sure I follow you here. Could you elaborate a bit?


Well, TUR says some things like transforming into the deity (creation stage) is actually just understanding that this is how things actually are. I think this is how Dzogchen can be explained through Tantra. But it's not necessary that this is how you view things from strictly Dzogchen POV.

Like for example, there is a commentary on the Guhyagarbha by Padmasambhava called The Garland of Views. This commentary is explaining the tantra from the Dzogchen POV. So there is also an explanation of how things really are - the mandala, that is, element of fire is such and such deity etc. But this is the Guhyagarbha mandala, not the Dzogchen mandala (I don't think there is such a thing), except it's explained through the Dzogchen view. In other words, this is how Dzogchen is explained to someone practicing Tantra (and I suppose the opposite too).

But in Dzogchen itself it doesn't have to be explained this way. Anyway if my thinking is wrong I'll be happy to be corrected. :smile:
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:33 pm

Pero wrote:
Well, TUR says some things like transforming into the deity (creation stage) is actually just understanding that this is how things actually are. I think this is how Dzogchen can be explained through Tantra. But it's not necessary that this is how you view things from strictly Dzogchen POV.

Like for example, there is a commentary on the Guhyagarbha by Padmasambhava called The Garland of Views. This commentary is explaining the tantra from the Dzogchen POV. So there is also an explanation of how things really are - the mandala, that is, element of fire is such and such deity etc. But this is the Guhyagarbha mandala, not the Dzogchen mandala (I don't think there is such a thing), except it's explained through the Dzogchen view. In other words, this is how Dzogchen is explained to someone practicing Tantra (and I suppose the opposite too).

But in Dzogchen itself it doesn't have to be explained this way. Anyway if my thinking is wrong I'll be happy to be corrected. :smile:


Well, one might tend to think of the emptiness of the Dharmakaya as "the way things truly are," but we can't forget that all three kayas are primordially complete within rigpa... Consider the togal displays, which are self-arising and not at all mentally-created. Rigpa encompasses both primordial purity and spontaneous presence; it "abides" as no "thing" at all while it may appear as anything at all.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pero » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:45 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Well, one might tend to think of the emptiness of the Dharmakaya as "the way things truly are," but we can't forget that all three kayas are primordially complete within rigpa... Consider the togal displays, which are self-arising and not at all mentally-created. Rigpa encompasses both primordial purity and spontaneous presence; it "abides" as no "thing" at all while it may appear as anything at all.


Yeah, so it doesn't follow it has to appear as a deity right?
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:51 pm

Pero wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:Well, one might tend to think of the emptiness of the Dharmakaya as "the way things truly are," but we can't forget that all three kayas are primordially complete within rigpa... Consider the togal displays, which are self-arising and not at all mentally-created. Rigpa encompasses both primordial purity and spontaneous presence; it "abides" as no "thing" at all while it may appear as anything at all.


Yeah, so it doesn't follow it has to appear as a deity right?


Not exclusively, no, obviously. But it will appear that way to arya bodhisattvas and naturally guide them toward buddhahood.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pero » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:52 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Not exclusively, no, obviously. But it will appear that way to arya bodhisattvas and naturally guide them toward buddhahood.


What do you mean? (If it's not a secret.)
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:17 pm

Pero wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:Not exclusively, no, obviously. But it will appear that way to arya bodhisattvas and naturally guide them toward buddhahood.


What do you mean? (If it's not a secret.)


You know, I've tried to think of how to word what I want to say, but each time it's somehow limited and misleading lol. In general, that's always going to be the case until I make some drastic leap forward on the path haha, but maybe I can do better after I've had some rest and can come back to it freshly. I'm off to bed (at 7am).
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pero » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:48 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:You know, I've tried to think of how to word what I want to say, but each time it's somehow limited and misleading lol. In general, that's always going to be the case until I make some drastic leap forward on the path haha, but maybe I can do better after I've had some rest and can come back to it freshly. I'm off to bed (at 7am).


Whoa, why are you up so late? :o
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