Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

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seeker242
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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby seeker242 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:45 am

One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby oushi » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:32 pm

Say what you think about me

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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby DGA » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:05 pm


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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Seishin » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:23 pm

The dedication of these monks is awe inspiring. Just to add to what Jikan said, not many monks go for the kaihogyo. Far fewer still pass the first 100days.

Gassh
Seishin

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Sara H
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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Sara H » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:47 am

Last edited by Sara H on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:43 am, edited 9 times in total.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Sara H » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:55 am

Regarding the whole setting oneself on fire thing, and other things..

You know, when Koho Zenji was asked the question of why, if in Buddhism, killing oneself is absolutely forbidden, so many monks immolated themselves during the Vietnam war, he said
"Perhaps, they were not real Buddhists."

Just because a person is wearing a monk's robes, does not mean that everything they do is a Buddhist act.
A monk killing themselves(or engaging in physically injurious, potentially lethal, or self-destructive behavior) is not a Buddhist act, any more than a monk saying that touching his penis will bring you enlightenment is.



In Gassho,

Sara
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

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Sara H
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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Sara H » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:57 am

A better way to say that last line would be:

A monk killing themselves(or engaging in practices that push the body to the point of breaking, and sometimes succeed in breaking it) is not a Buddhist act, any more than a monk saying that touching his penis will bring you enlightenment is.

In Gassho,

Sara H.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Seishin » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:18 am


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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby yegyal » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:23 am


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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Sara H » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:52 am

"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby coldwater » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:27 am

According to some sutras (which were referenced previously and you can read the Digha Nikaya to see a lot of talk about asceticism, in fact the Buddha says "I do not denounce it, whoever says so is lying") the Buddha often referred to himself as an ascetic and condoned asceticism with proper motivations- that were aimed at reducing klesas and leading to liberation. Rather than asceticism for the purpose of blindly following ritual, self-mortification, fame, praise, profit or to lord it over others. He was engaged in self-mortification and penitence when he renounced the extreme forms of asceticism. Again, many links have been provided previously for your on this subject.

Kaihogyo, as a living tradition, is currently not a self-mortifying practice nor a form of penitence. People do not die and it is not 'impossible for a human' or else humans wouldn't be doing it.

It isn't clear what the issue is for you? What do you want to prove? That a minority of people who love the dharma in a larger tradition that also loves that dharma is doing something Buddha said not to do...then what happens? That some people have been figuring it out themselves (Buddha's last teaching) and found something that works for them but not everyone? That some people 100s of years ago did crazy stuff sometimes? Then we can know who is "REALLY" a Buddhist while who is just "kinda-Buddhist" or not at all?

Regarding Thich Quang Duc, interesting that you quote a Japanese priest (and...who is this person you quote? Could you provide a link?) about a Vietnamese monk. What Thich Quan Duc did that was really pivotal in ending the persecution (of which there were deaths and violence against) of Vietnamese Buddhists by the government. I also think your equation and judgment of that act to 'touch the penis to enlightenment' scam is pretty crass. I don't see how a false monk trying to get laid is in any way similar (in scope, effect or intention or what have you) to a monk making a radical political statement to end the abuse of the larger Buddhist community in their community.

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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Seishin » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:28 am


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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Jnana » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:56 pm


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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Sara H » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:12 pm

:good:

Right, the Buddha would not have viewed forcing oneself to walk unnaturally long distances per day, to the point of possibly having a heart attack from exhaustion and an unnaturally weakened body, in poor sandals that destroy the feet, on very few calories, while intentionally sleep depriving oneself, and then if one failed, having a practice that traditionally said you should kill yourself with a knife provided, or hang yourself, as a form of "natural asceticism". Walking twice the distance of a marathon per day on 2 hours of sleep that self-mortifies the body so much that it might cause the heart to give out, is anything but "natural."

There's a big difference between celibacy, and living a simple monastic life, of cheap clothing and living on alms; and intentionally doing a practice that one knows full well may destroy one's body or cause to kill oneself.

In Gassho,

Sara H.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil Singer

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy

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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby DGA » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:14 am


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Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby DGA » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:28 am

Sara,

Your repeated and unfounded insistence on equating kaihogyo (and evidently some other TienTai/Tendai practices too) as suicide is unfounded and untenable. Unfounded because, as you have already been shown, your position is not based in fact but in this polemical material you persist in. Untenable because suicide is a volitional act of ending one's life, undertaken with the intention to kill; by contrast, any kind of meditation practice is undertaken with a completely different motivation, that of creating a cause for the liberation of all sentient beings, realizing one's inherent Buddhahood in order to be a beacon of light for all (that is a metaphor of self-immolation from the Lotus Sutra, apropos of "the whole setting yourself on fire" thing. See chapter 23). Also, for an act to be suicidal, it needs to lead to death. Kaihogyo is a killer of delusion and nothing more. Dressing up as one does for one's funeral, with props like a rope and a dagger, are part of the performance of the ritual.

Insisting as you do that kaihogyo practice is necessarily suicide is like claiming that chod practitioners are murderers because they OBVIOUSLY kill people in order to acquire the bone-trumpets and other acoutrement they use in their practice. No one would claim this and expect to be taken seriously, no matter how often or how vehemently he or she might repeat it. My point is that esoteric practice has its own internal logic. It may or may not correspond to Buddhist practice as you understand it so far in your practice. You are not exactly creating positive causes or conditions for yourself when you throw out baseless accusations about practitioners you do not know and practices you willfully refuse to understand in its own terms.

Here I am again, criticizing your actions online. I hope you understand I am responding to your actions and not your person. I am confident that you will attain Buddhahood. Here is why:

http://dctendai.blogspot.com/2013/04/lo ... ns-20.html

Elsewhere, someone asked what daily practice for a Tendai Buddhist looks like. I should have mentioned that you get to engage in verbal arnis with a delightful cast of characters on teh interwebz all day long.

This thread is done. Both teams played hard. God bless and goodnight.



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