Enlightened masters?

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Re: Enlightened masters?

Postby Jikan » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:26 pm

shel wrote:I don't follow how the Kennett quote clarifies anything.


You are not the only one.
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Postby Sara H » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:31 am

Jikan wrote:I recognize that in leaving the relation between the content of the video (which describes a beautiful, inspiring, and effective practice) open to inference, I left it open to incompetent inferences. I regret I made this opportunity open to you. I do think my subsequent post clarifies my meaning adequately for the purposes of any reasonable person.


This is not Right Speech Jikan.

You're basically being very sarcastic and debasing, and calling me an incompetent and unreasonable person.
Name calling is neither Right Speech, nor in accord with forum rules.

I said:

Sara H wrote:
I'm not exactly sure that...
making myself walk more than 80 kilometers per day
while getting only 2 hours of sleep per night, and then walking for an additional 17 hours,
for 3 and 1/2 months, while eating just a daily rice ball and a bowl of noodles,
for 100 days, in homemade straw sandals that will leave my feet broken, bruised, and blistered,
And then, in addition to this if this were not bad enough, in the fifth year of doing this, doing an ordeal where I must go nine days where I cannot eat, drink, or sleep; with monks on either side of me, to keep me awake, and then during this entire activity I have a good chance of dying from sheer exhaustion, and then if I don't die, but fail to complete it, I must kill myself with a rope or knife I carry for ritual disembowelment, or hang myself, ...

...Is a sign of enlightenment.


From your video:

01:41 "Fujinami's pilgrimage is more than eighty kilometers long. The monk will follow the route every day for the next three and a half months. He'll sleep for just two hours a night, then walk for 17 hours. Only stopping to utter a few secret incantations."

02:06 " An olympic marathon is forty-two kilometers. On each of the next 100 days, Fujinami will cover twice that distance."

02:23 "There are no "high tech" supplements to keep him going; just a daily rice ball, and a bowl of noodles."

02:57 " The monk is approaching the conclusion of the Kaihogyo, seven years of tests and trials. By the end of it, if he survives, we will become a living saint."

05:44 "In all, Fujinami must spent 1,000 days on the road, in all seasons, in all conditions."

06:28 "The 'road to enlightenment' , is strewn with jagged rocks, poisonous snakes, and uneven ground. And yet it is traversed with hand-made straw sandals that offer little protection. Fujinami goes through at least two, sometimes five pairs a day. His feet are left blistered, bruised, and broken; but he cannot stop."

06:54 "Under his robes, Fujinami carries a rope and knife: if he fails to complete his 'mountain march', no matter what the reason, he must immediately hang, or disembowel himself."

07:11 "[Prof. John Stevens] This is serious. There have been people who've died in practice. ...Along the roadside there, you'll see 'this monk died during training.'"

07:36 "In year five, the running is interrupted by something even more dangerous and demanding. The 'Doiri'. [during which] He must go nine days without any food, drink or sleep."

08:07 "[Prof. John Stevens] There's two monks always on each side of them, guarding them so they don't fall over, they don't sleep, so they actually, they do... ...they're very strict about not taking their food, or water."

08:35 "Fujinami is only allowed to get up once, every 24 hours, when he fetches sacrificial water. On day one, the 200 meter trip to the well took a few minutes; here, on day nine, the walk takes an agonizing, hour. As he can walk at all, is a miracle, according to medical theory; Fujinami should be dead. "



In Gassho,

Sara H.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
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Sara H
 
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Location: On Hiatus from Dharmawheel.

Re: Enlightened masters?

Postby Jikan » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:53 pm

Hi Sara,

Yes: I am saying you are behaving incompetently in this thread, particularly in your responses to posts I have made. I have given my reasons for saying so. Agree with this assessment or not, it is my position: your replies to my comments in this thread are not accountable to fact or reason.

No: I am not being sarcastic about it. I am stating it directly. I get no pleasure from pointing this out, but someone has to rebut you when you miss the mark.

Again: if you would like to discuss the relative merits or demerits of the kaihogyo practice as you perceive it (assuming you are willing to discuss in a spirit of open inquiry), do so in the thread dedicated to that topic. This thread is about contemporary enlightened masters. Perhaps you have met some? I would be interested in hearing more about that, and I assume others would as well.
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Re: Enlightened masters?

Postby Sara H » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:22 am

Jikan wrote:Hi Sara,

Yes: I am saying you are behaving incompetently in this thread, particularly in your responses to posts I have made.


Jikan I said:
making myself walk more than 80 kilometers per day

and your source said:
02:06 " An olympic marathon is forty-two kilometers. On each of the next 100 days, Fujinami will cover twice that distance."

42x2= 84. 84 is "more than 80" kilometers per day.
That is an accurate and competent statement Jikan.
In fact, your source said so exactly:
01:41 "Fujinami's pilgrimage is more than eighty kilometers long.



I said:
while getting only 2 hours of sleep per night, and then walking for an additional 17 hours,
for 3 and 1/2 months,

From your video:
01:41 "Fujinami's pilgrimage is more than eighty kilometers long. The monk will follow the route every day for the next three and a half months. He'll sleep for just two hours a night, then walk for 17 hours. Only stopping to utter a few secret incantations."



I said:
while eating just a daily rice ball and a bowl of noodles,

and your source said:
02:23 "There are no "high tech" supplements to keep him going; just a daily rice ball, and a bowl of noodles."



I said:
for 100 days,

and your source said:
02:06 " An olympic marathon is forty-two kilometers. On each of the next 100 days, Fujinami will cover twice that distance."


I said:
in homemade straw sandals that will leave my feet broken, bruised, and blistered,

and your source said:
06:28 "The 'road to enlightenment' , is strewn with jagged rocks, poisonous snakes, and uneven ground. And yet it is traversed with hand-made straw sandals that offer little protection. Fujinami goes through at least two, sometimes five pairs a day. His feet are left blistered, bruised, and broken; but he cannot stop."


I said:
And then, in addition to this if this were not bad enough, in the fifth year of doing this, doing an ordeal where I must go nine days where I cannot eat, drink, or sleep;

And your source said:
07:36 "In year five, the running is interrupted by something even more dangerous and demanding. The 'Doiri'. [during which] He must go nine days without any food, drink or sleep."


I said:
with monks on either side of me, to keep me awake,

And your source said:
08:07 "[Prof. John Stevens] There's two monks always on each side of them, guarding them so they don't fall over, they don't sleep, so they actually, they do... ...they're very strict about not taking their food, or water."


I said:
and then during this entire activity I have a good chance of dying from sheer exhaustion,

And your source said:
08:35 "Fujinami is only allowed to get up once, every 24 hours, when he fetches sacrificial water. On day one, the 200 meter trip to the well took a few minutes; here, on day nine, the walk takes an agonizing, hour. As he can walk at all, is a miracle, according to medical theory; Fujinami should be dead. "

and,
07:11 "[Prof. John Stevens] This is serious. There have been people who've died in practice. ...Along the roadside there, you'll see 'this monk died during training.'"


I said:
and then if I don't die, but fail to complete it, I must kill myself with a rope or knife I carry for ritual disembowelment, or hang myself,

and your source said:
06:54 "Under his robes, Fujinami carries a rope and knife: if he fails to complete his 'mountain march', no matter what the reason, he must immediately hang, or disembowel himself."



I'm sorry Jikan, but that's not incompetence; that's academically accurate citing and paraphrasing.

It's a valid criticism in the context of this thread,(as you posted a source in this, in reference to your claim of having met people with 'real attainment') to question whether the people practicing that, and the masters endorsing it,(in reference to the source you posted), are exhibiting enlightened behavior.

If you want to discuss the Tendai aspects more specifically, then I would politely suggest doing so in the thread I provided.

In any case, I'd suggest we get
:focus:

In Gassho,

Sara
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
User avatar
Sara H
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: On Hiatus from Dharmawheel.

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