Ayahuasca and Buddhism

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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby CrawfordHollow » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:03 am

As a former heroin addict, avid acid-eater, and DMT smoker, I can honestly say that drugs have done nothing but bring harm to me and my family. Sure, you can have spritual experiences with psychedelics, they may even show you a glimpse of something beyond the ego, but drugs can never become the path, at least not in my experience, which is pretty vast regarding these substances. The only drug that was able help me with my heroin addiction was suboxone, and I think that anybody who is serious about getting off that crap would be well advised to go to a doctor for help rather than trust a psychedelic or self-proclaimed urban shaman, but hey whatever works...

If drug use is really what taught you to be compassionate and not to kill and is the source of all of your wisdom, then who am I to tell you thats wrong. I was already a Buddhist when I started using all that stuff and all I can say is that it caused major problems, and not just the dope, all of it- the DMT, weed, everything. The dharma is what will nourish you, drugs will just rob you of all your life-force and cause suffering. I don't know how old you are, but in my expereince this has been true of everybody I have met who uses. I have also seen people get extremely violent on DMT and acid, it is certainly not all peace and roses. And as far as DMT showing you other realms and what not, I am sorry but that is bs, the space-elves that you encounter when doing DMT are nothing but delusions, hallucinations, sorry...
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:44 am

murphythecat wrote:Greckavarnos: seriously, you have been really hard to read all this thread. All you said was mere opinions, view point, judgments, generalization, assumptions based on your ego centered experience.
Whereas what you are about to say is objective truth. None of the below is based on your personal experience. :roll:
Without psychadelic experiences, I would have not start my buddhist practise.
And there are millions of Buddhists out there that have never taken psychedelic substances. MILLIONS!
Psychadelic, tryptamine more specifically, are mind expending psychadelic. They do not induce illusion, contrary, they show you a part of the reality, a part of your mind. You see all the multidimensional realities, devas, ghost, gods, that the Buddha was talking about. You see those entities, worlds. Sure they are experiences and impermanent, but they have been, for me, life saving. and showed me the path, the light in me.
Every single moment of the day we have experiences that can be used to "show the light" in you, we ignore them out of habit. Wouldn't it be better to use everyday (every minute) common experiences in order to "show the light" instead of depending on "extraordinary" experiences? Makes more sense to me since it is the every day grind that really needs liberation.
Do you know how many heroin addict cure them selve with ONE Iboga trip.
No, do you? I personally have no problem with pharmaceutical/medicinal applications of any types of substances.
Psychadelics can be life saving. Who are you to judge all those substance, when it has been proven how helpful it has been to so many users.
Acontium also has pharmaceutical applications but I wouldn't recommend its recreational use.
I know that you not had a ego death with a psychadelic. I am a buddhist, I am not a drug addict, but DMT and Shrooms definitely showed me part of my ego, of my mind, that I needed to see in order to become a buddhist. My experience is lived by all the users I know. Most of the forum like dmtnexus, shroomery, they all have buddha avatars and what not.
And how does their experience inform the Four Noble Truths (for example)?
Seriously, your condescendant attitude is really weird for a practisionner. Sure, any experience is bad and impermanent and cause suffering.
I did not say anything about experiences being bad, these are your words.
But I doubt that you are a buddha, I doubt that every action you do in life is toward enlightment. You are not a buddha, dont repeat what the buddha says, over and over, without taking into accounts how many different paths there is to engliment.
Taking drugs does not lead to enlightenment, if it did then all of your friends over dmtnexus, etc... would be enlightened.
Psychadelic user are for the most part, lovely persons that have realize how much beauty there is in this world, how important love is, ect. PPsychadelic showed me love, respect for others, ect. I do not know any user of dmt or shrooms or ayu that are violent persons.
I do know of people on dmt and shrooms bein violent. So whose experience is more valid?
Even though I do not enlighten in this life, I will have learned morality, love, respect, not killing, ect all because of psychadelics.
No, not because of psychedelics, because of your mind.
Psychadelics, just like the poster before me, showed me my path in life. to be compassionate, to help other, all loving kindness. I hold those substance with utter respect, so is everyone who takes them that I know of.
Lot's of people I know of do not have this attitude. So whose experience is more valid?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Stewart » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:57 am

I agree with Greg, and it appears to me that you are simply clinging to your experiences on Psychedelics, and are prepared to justify your clinging by the usual string of excuses. 'I have develop such and such an insight whilst taking....' 'I would never have become a Buddhist if it wasn't for....' etc.

My experience wasn't as bad as Crawfords, but I loved Psychedelics when I was a teenager, and dived head-long into the experiences... but eventually came to the rather sobering conclusion that the experiences were not giving me any lasting benefit. They made me feel awful on the come down and lacked any real stability.

None of my Gurus take them, and they never promote them....why do you think this is? Perhaps because there is no authentic benefit in them?

Bottom line is, yes they may make some people more receptive to spirtitual concepts and values, but they don't actually establish you in an authentic spiritual path.

I tripped with lots of people who aren't spirtually inclined whatsoever and they were not changed by Psychedelics, and I mean a LOT of Psychedelics, some of them stil think I'm crazy for being Buddhist for the last 20 years.

Some people have a spirtual experience washing their car or climbing a mountain or nearly drowning...point being it's not the drugs, it's your mind.
s.
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby oushi » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:59 am

Consciousness altering substances is a very complicated topic. Certainly, one needs to be prepared and ready to use them. 99,9% of users are unprepared. No wonder when guides are very hard to find. Trip depends on the drug, setting, and karma, so they are not supposed to be taken in a club, or similar setting. They require long preparation of conscience, purification of intention and open mind. Drugs are not a cure, but they can be very effective part of therapy. In the other hand, if fear, guilt, doubt or anger gets into the trip, you may end up with mutilated mind. So, don't take it lightly. Unfortunately, because people treat it as a toy, others use it like a toy. Intention plays a key role here, and often determines the outcome. If someone uses drugs with respect, humility, openness, and good intentions, he will benefit from it.
And to make it little bit more funny (because some will get seriously aroused):
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Jesse » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:04 pm

Psychedelics can be used like any other medicine, they can be used for a specific purpose, then stopped when a result is achieved, or they can be abused.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/ ... al-illness

Some useful Google searches:
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_rn=11&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=aMtwQGZXqhnUQLix8KJlbA&cp=13&gs_id=8w&xhr=t&q=mushrooms+depression&es_nrs=true&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=mushrooms+dep&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45645796,d.dmg&fp=1c0e3a099c4f35cb&biw=1920&bih=919

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_rn=11&gs_ri=psy-ab&gs_mss=mdma%20oc&tok=aMtwQGZXqhnUQLix8KJlbA&pq=mdma%20ocd&cp=7&gs_id=15l&xhr=t&q=mdma+ptsd&es_nrs=true&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=mdma+pt&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45645796,d.dmg&fp=1c0e3a099c4f35cb&biw=1920&bih=919

There are many who believe they have legitimate spiritual uses also, and they have been used extensively in most of the worlds religions. Of course spiritual use is most commonly done via the supervision of a teacher of some kind, of spiritual guide. It's obvious that psychedelics can cause alot of issues as well, especially in naive and inexperienced people.
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Holybla » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:07 pm

In tantric we use drugs. You say drugs but it means food. Different food have different action. You can take essence of flower like oils and burn that for inhaling. Or eating. But must be taken in ritual or yogic way with conditions for auspiciousness. So you must know which compounds have which reaction and how to use. Even poisons can be eaten and body grows stronger if you know how to prepare. And psychedelics can be very useful on path if you know what you are doing. You must be very mature and methodical. Not like these salvia YouTube parties, these kids smoking in their messy rooms falling down acting stupid. Of course you are damaging yourself like that. You can purify your belief in vision if you induce visions while keeping your presence. As soon as presence is lost all is lost. So small doses spread out over time so that body can recover. Be honest about it to oneself whether it helps or not. If you need help then get it. But that doesn't mean responsible yogic doctors can't make use of these things under appropriate conditions.
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Simon E. » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:09 pm

" we " ?
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby CrawfordHollow » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:06 pm

What vajrayana tradition uses drugs?
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby CrawfordHollow » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:23 pm

I also want to point out that I don't think that psychedelics have no use or are negative in an absolute way. I just don't believe that they can be used as a path to enlightenment. In my experience taking psychedelics over a long period of time depletes your energy and lifeforce. You can of course have experiences that can give you insight and knowledge. There are an infinite amount of experiences that you can have in samsara that you can gain wisdom from. If you fall into the trap of relying on something as destructive as pychedelics or if you confuse that experience with realization then you are in for some trouble. In fact, the most profound thing that I learned from these substances was that you don't need them. You can have such profound and mind-blowing experiences working with your mind without the risk of loosing it. And the risk of loosing your mind on psychedelics is extremely real. I still don't think that I would tell somebody to never try something like mushrooms, though. If you want to have a peek, then look. Just be careful and remember that you already posess the key to the cosmos (for the lack of a better term) in your own mind. What a shame it would be to loose it.
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:49 pm

Alcohol is a drug and "we" use that quite a bit during Vajrayana rituals.

I have never seen any other drugs being used.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby CrawfordHollow » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:54 pm

Sure, we use alcohol in vajrayana, but not to the effect of getting intoxicated. It is used as a symbol for equality and pure vision. The previous poster seemed to imply that drugs were used to enchance their practice through intoxication. You can't really take a psychedelic and not feel anything, at least I don't think any of us could. So I think driking a little alcohol in vajrayana practice is a far cry from what they were implying.
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Tron010101 » Mon May 13, 2013 4:36 pm

Lets stick to Ayahuasca and Buddhism. Some personal notes for the genuinely intrigued.

1. Ayahuasca points directly at Buddhism. One of the primary reasons why is because in the experience itself the individual is VIOLENTLY ripped out of duality and time as such.....the ego is revealed for what it actually is.....the trickster, a false construct continuously playing games "IN" the mind, a savage beast looking only to satisfy itself. Note to self: it can be very very embarassing experience looking at oneself, from outside of oneself.....the greed, the lust, the unfounded passions........this is the usually agreed upon feeling participants experience with themselves.

2. Ayahuasca can act as a healing agent. I know this first hand. It has healed some people i have known, it has also physically healed me. Conditions that have been persistent for years....not just a fly by night allergy.

3. Ayahuasca blow right out of the water the idea that we die and are done. It reveals that we have been here for thousands and thousands of years......and in my experience it has revealed to me that we existed in other forms as vehicles for progression...plant>fish>bird>human.....like an ascending ladder in time. Shown was the facts that the human race is MUCH older than what we are being told and that our history books are plagued with intentional inaccuracies, biased science, and politically charged stories and scripts.....all of which come from the delusioned mind, like a bad virus spreading from one generation to another.

4. The experience revealed the most prominent spiritual and enlightened form given to us humans unequivocally was the Buddha and in our modern time Ramana Maharshi.

5. In the Ayahuasca experience, evil is revealed to be true and extremely and brutally rampant in the reality, but not how we understand it. Evil comes out of ignorance and ignorance seeks to resolve itself until it is united once again into the whole. In other words darkness is a lack of light seeking to resolve itself just like a cancer patient seek healing and some form of relief from the pain. The worst thing we can do is ignore our fears for if we do, it becomes our master.

6. It came to me that our ignorance and delusion of reality is way deeper that we understand...and we are borderline stupid with the IQ of an ANT.... but we ultimately decide until when. Hahaha. The chaos does have its funny moments.

More to Come.........Maybe....
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon May 13, 2013 5:12 pm

Tron010101 wrote:Lets stick to Ayahuasca and Buddhism. Some personal notes for the genuinely intrigued.

1. Ayahuasca points directly at Buddhism. One of the primary reasons why is because in the experience itself the individual is VIOLENTLY ripped out of duality and time as such.....the ego is revealed for what it actually is.....the trickster, a false construct continuously playing games "IN" the mind, a savage beast looking only to satisfy itself. Note to self: it can be very very embarassing experience looking at oneself, from outside of oneself.....the greed, the lust, the unfounded passions........this is the usually agreed upon feeling participants experience with themselves.
Inside/outside, false/true, in the mind/outside the mind... all you are doing is describing a dualistic experience. Buddhism is not about (more) dualistic experiences.
2. Ayahuasca can act as a healing agent. I know this first hand. It has healed some people i have known, it has also physically healed me. Conditions that have been persistent for years....not just a fly by night allergy.
I don't think you will find anybody here denying the medicinal applications of some psychedelics.
3. Ayahuasca blow right out of the water the idea that we die and are done. It reveals that we have been here for thousands and thousands of years......and in my experience it has revealed to me that we existed in other forms as vehicles for progression...plant>fish>bird>human.....like an ascending ladder in time. Shown was the facts that the human race is MUCH older than what we are being told and that our history books are plagued with intentional inaccuracies, biased science, and politically charged stories and scripts.....all of which come from the delusioned mind, like a bad virus spreading from one generation to another.
It is not Ayahuasca which is doing this, it is the mind which is providing the insight. Maybe, for some people, Ayahuasca can facilitate this, but why use a crutch when you have two legs to walk on?
4. The experience revealed the most prominent spiritual and enlightened form given to us humans unequivocally was the Buddha and in our modern time Ramana Maharshi.
Ummmmm... yeah, whatever...
5. In the Ayahuasca experience, evil is revealed to be true and extremely and brutally rampant in the reality, but not how we understand it. Evil comes out of ignorance and ignorance seeks to resolve itself until it is united once again into the whole. In other words darkness is a lack of light seeking to resolve itself just like a cancer patient seek healing and some form of relief from the pain. The worst thing we can do is ignore our fears for if we do, it becomes our master.
Buddhism says that nothing is ultimately true. In Buddhism we do not get into this evil/good trip. Ignorance causes suffering. Suffering can arise from phenomenonally "good" or "evil" actions depending on one's intention.
6. It came to me that our ignorance and delusion of reality is way deeper that we understand...and we are borderline stupid with the IQ of an ANT.... but we ultimately decide until when. Hahaha. The chaos does have its funny moments.
This sounds like drug induced gibberish.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby oushi » Mon May 13, 2013 6:24 pm

Tron010101,
It is a mystery on both ends. Mystery that deserves respect. Jumping into simple conclusions does not serve any good purpose, especially one made by an ant. ;)
I hope more research will be done on the subject, in controlled environment, with pure compounds, so maybe we will be able to use it for our benefit.
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Tron010101 » Mon May 13, 2013 8:05 pm

Hmmmm......Who in this forum has participated in an Ayahuasca Ceremony?

@ gregkavarnos.
You have no clue what I’m talking about. Your opinion is blatenty biased. Have you taken Ayahuasca? No you haven’t. I can tell by your language. You have no real clue what Ayahuasca is. Sell your biased agenda to someone else who doesn’t know what they are talking about. By the way…….bad news…….Reality Exists and you have to live with others until the time comes.

@Oushi.
Look up Ayahuasca. Not DMT. Then get back to me. I understand the Ant comment sounds sarcastic……but there is a very important point behind that. As above, so below. Ultimately everything is a choice and reality is a construct of the mind.
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon May 13, 2013 8:43 pm

Tron010101 wrote:You have no clue what I’m talking about. Your opinion is blatenty biased. Have you taken Ayahuasca? No you haven’t. I can tell by your language. You have no real clue what Ayahuasca is. Sell your biased agenda to someone else who doesn’t know what they are talking about.
And you can go sell your drugs to somebody else that doesn't know what they are talking about, because I'm not buying.

It is quite simple: drugs are not necessary to achieve a shift in consciousness, the mind, by itself, is more than enough, if you have the correct teachers.
By the way…….bad news…….Reality Exists...
In Buddhism there are two types of reality: ultimate and relative. Which reality are you talking about? Why would it be bad news? This statement of yours is completely contradicted by your response to Oushi:
and reality is a construct of the mind.
So, pull yourself together and answer me this: does Reality(sic) exist or is reality a construction of mind?
...and you have to live with others until the time comes.
Show me the self and I will show you others! As for "...until the time comes". What time comes? I mean the statement is ominous sounding and I am trembling in my boots, but it doesn't actually mean anything.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Tron010101 » Mon May 13, 2013 9:58 pm

@gregkavarnos

I respect your point of view, as its your own. Are you a recovering drug addict by any chance?
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon May 13, 2013 10:14 pm

Nope!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Tron010101 » Mon May 13, 2013 10:19 pm

Lets start by some education in the right direction on the subject matter.

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Re: Ayahuasca and Buddhism

Postby Tron010101 » Mon May 13, 2013 10:21 pm

Long term effects of Ayahuasca.

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