Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby PorkChop » Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:38 pm

oushi wrote:So, beyond this unreal realm lies the realm containing inherent existence? As we discuss marathon monks, how far is it from the unreal reality? Can we measure this distance using the way they practice?


No, I never said that.
If you're going to deny that your views of reality are corrupted by your discursive thought, then we have nothing to talk about.
User avatar
PorkChop
 
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby oushi » Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:49 pm

PorkChop wrote:No, I never said that.

Go through the posts, it is simple logic. Making free statements without examining their consequences may end up with results you didn't intent.
PorkChop wrote:If you're going to deny that your views of reality are corrupted by your discursive thought, then we have nothing to talk about.

Neither are they mine, as there is no inherently existing me, nor can they be unreal, as they wouldn't appear. Reality simply is, whether there are views, or not.
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby PorkChop » Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:58 pm

oushi wrote:
PorkChop wrote:No, I never said that.

Go through the posts, it is simple logic. Making free statements without examining their consequences may end up with results you didn't intent.
PorkChop wrote:If you're going to deny that your views of reality are corrupted by your discursive thought, then we have nothing to talk about.

Neither are they mine, as there is no inherently existing me, nor can they be unreal, as they wouldn't appear. Reality simply is, whether there are views, or not.


You go through my posts and tell me why T'ien T'ai and Tendai monks need to be worried about specific Ch'an teachings?
According to Ch'an (a contemporaneous/later tradition)
T'ien T'ai and Tendai monks are fanatics for following precepts, as is most of the rest of the Buddhist world (Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana).
T'ien T'ai and Tendai monks are fanatics for devotional practices, as is most of the rest of the Buddhist world (Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana).
T'ien T'ai and Tendai monks are fanatics for ascetic practices, as is most of the rest of the Buddhist world (Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana).
Please tell me how Ch'an is the general position as accepted by the Tendai board?

Mistaking a snake for a rope is simple logic?
You're asserting the rope is a real snake, I'm saying it's an illusory snake.
Now you're saying illusions don't exist, and it's just reality.
I'm saying there's not even a valid base for many self-imposed limitations, you're trying to say that the boogey man you think is in the closet is really there.
You make no sense.
User avatar
PorkChop
 
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby oushi » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:12 pm

PorkChop wrote:Mistaking a snake for a rope is simple logic?
You're asserting the rope is a real snake, I'm saying it's an illusory snake.
Now you're saying illusions don't exist, and it's just reality.
I'm saying there's not even a valid base for many self-imposed limitations, you're trying to say that the boogey man you think is in the closet is really there.
You make no sense.

Is there a rope? You will have a hard time proving it.
If there is no base for salf-imposed limitations, is there a base for overcoming them by exhausting oneself?
If I think there is a boogey man in the closet, is my thought nonexistent, not real?
Stay with the real, because the false comes out of assumptions, and it is false because it cannot be found.
Everything that is, is real, everything that cannot be found is false. If reality is not here, and has to be found by long walks, where is it, and where are we now?
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby PorkChop » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:15 pm

oushi wrote:Is there a rope? You will have a hard time proving it.
If there is no base for salf-imposed limitations, is there a base for overcoming them by exhausting oneself?
If I think there is a boogey man in the closet, is my thought nonexistent, not real?
Stay with the real, because the false comes out of assumptions, and it is false because it cannot be found.
Everything that is, is real, everything that cannot be found is false. If reality is not here, and has to be found by long walks, where is it, and where are we now?


There is definitely no boogey man... but sometimes you've gotta walk to the closet to see...
With that last phrase you sound absolutely Sarvastivadan...
Save yourself the trouble and quit trying so hard to talk in Ch'an circles...
User avatar
PorkChop
 
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby oushi » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:17 pm

If you cannot refute it, slander it... Why do you call for Sarvastivadan instead of answering?
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby PorkChop » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:18 pm

oushi wrote:If you cannot refute it, slander it...

pot... kettle... black...
User avatar
PorkChop
 
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby oushi » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:21 pm

Still, I respect you view.
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby PorkChop » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:30 pm

oushi wrote:Still, I respect you view.


my view based in an "extreme form of fanaticism"? :roll:
Sarvastivadan = "all exists", ie "Everything that is, is real"
And I did answer.... you walk to see that the boogey man in the closet is in fact your own imagination (no valid base), as are a lot of our self-imposed limitations, and as are a lot of our views on reality...
Never got an answer to my questions, but o well, I'm sure i'll get more nonsensical critiques of my logic.
User avatar
PorkChop
 
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby oushi » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:11 am

PorkChop wrote:my view based in an "extreme form of fanaticism"?

Yes.
PorkChop wrote:Sarvastivadan = "all exists", ie "Everything that is, is real"

Those two are quite different. I didn't say that all exist, but that which exists, is real. My thought about boogey man exists, so it is real, but it doesn't mean that he exists in the closet. Same goes for ascetic practices of those monks. They practice is real, they can even measure the distance to the closet and find out if their assumptions were correct. If they survive...
PorkChop wrote:And I did answer.... you walk to see that the boogey man in the closet is in fact your own imagination (no valid base)

I didn't differentiate between material and imagined. If you want to say that only material things exist, and are valid base, say it.
PorkChop wrote:I'm sure i'll get more nonsensical critiques of my logic.

Refute it then. What's the problem?
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Sara H » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:17 am

Jikan wrote:You make a number of claims here regarding a practice about which you are not very well informed. (I remember there being a precept against such behavior...)


I would respectfully suggest that perhaps you should take your own advice and be careful about making sure that the information you post about your practice is accurate, before you post it.

After all, I'm getting my information from the video you provided.

Jikan wrote:I'm confident I've met people with real attainment.


viewtopic.php?f=77&t=12420



In Gassho,

Sara H.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
User avatar
Sara H
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: On Hiatus from Dharmawheel.

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Sara H » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:33 am

Seishin wrote:
Sara, people don't kill themselves any more. Many people have failed the Kaihogyo and have lived. These days, the carrying of the knife and robe is symbolic.


According to a witness in the video, people still do die regularly doing this.

And, whether or not it's become "more safe" or not, does not change the underlying fact that this practice is asceticism, which was exactly what the Buddha taught not to do.


In Gassho,

Sara.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
User avatar
Sara H
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: On Hiatus from Dharmawheel.

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Sara H » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:36 am

From Jikan's video:

01:41 "Fujinami's pilgrimage is more than eighty kilometers long. The monk will follow the route every day for the next three and a half months. He'll sleep for just two hours a night, then walk for 17 hours. Only stopping to utter a few secret incantations."

02:06 " An olympic marathon is forty-two kilometers. On each of the next 100 days, Fujinami will cover twice that distance."

02:23 "There are no "high tech" supplements to keep him going; just a daily rice ball, and a bowl of noodles."

02:57 " The monk is approaching the conclusion of the Kaihogyo, seven years of tests and trials. By the end of it, if he survives, we will become a living saint."

05:44 "In all, Fujinami must spent 1,000 days on the road, in all seasons, in all conditions."

06:28 "The 'road to enlightenment' , is strewn with jagged rocks, poisonous snakes, and uneven ground. And yet it is traversed with hand-made straw sandals that offer little protection. Fujinami goes through at least two, sometimes five pairs a day. His feet are left blistered, bruised, and broken; but he cannot stop."

06:54 "Under his robes, Fujinami carries a rope and knife: if he fails to complete his 'mountain march', no matter what the reason, he must immediately hang, or disembowel himself."

07:11 "[Prof. John Stevens] This is serious. There have been people who've died in practice. ...Along the roadside there, you'll see 'this monk died during training.'"

07:36 "In year five, the running is interrupted by something even more dangerous and demanding. The 'Doiri'. [during which] He must go nine days without any food, drink or sleep."

08:07 "[Prof. John Stevens] There's two monks always on each side of them, guarding them so they don't fall over, they don't sleep, so they actually, they do... ...they're very strict about not taking their food, or water."

08:35 "Fujinami is only allowed to get up once, every 24 hours, when he fetches sacrificial water. On day one, the 200 meter trip to the well took a few minutes; here, on day nine, the walk takes an agonizing, hour. As he can walk at all, is a miracle, according to medical theory; Fujinami should be dead. "



In Gassho,

Sara H.
"Life is full of suffering. AND Life is full of the Eternal
IT IS OUR CHOICE
We can stand in our shadow, and wallow in the darkness,
OR
We can turn around.
It is OUR choice." -Rev. Basil

" ...out of fear, even the good harm one another. " -Rev. Dazui MacPhillamy
User avatar
Sara H
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:51 pm
Location: On Hiatus from Dharmawheel.

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Seishin » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:24 am

Sara H wrote:
Seishin wrote:
Sara, people don't kill themselves any more. Many people have failed the Kaihogyo and have lived. These days, the carrying of the knife and robe is symbolic.


According to a witness in the video, people still do die regularly doing this.


I would question that witness as to my knowledge, no-one has killed themselves for over 100 years, however some people has suffered heart attacks. The practice has been changed (and I'm sure will continue to change) to avoid people dying. Despite what you may think, this practice is not about killing people.

Sara H wrote:And, whether or not it's become "more safe" or not, does not change the underlying fact that this practice is asceticism, which was exactly what the Buddha taught not to do.


In which tradition did Buddha say this? In Theravada there are plenty of references to a middle path between extreme asceticism and indulgence. However asceticism is part of the practice, eg. Eating one meal a day is asceticism.

Bodhidharma sat meditating facing a wall for 9 years (supposedly), this is asceticism.

The 13 ascetic practices of a Buddhist monk http://en.dhammadana.org/sangha/dhutanga.htm

You see, a Buddhist monk is considered an ascetic. So I'd like to know where you are getting the idea that Buddha was against asceticism?

Gassho,
Seishin
User avatar
Seishin
Former staff member
 
Posts: 1427
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 am

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby BuddhaSoup » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:43 pm

Others have used the word "inspiration" to describe the Kaihogyo monks. When viewing the video of the Kaihogyo, and the Shugendo trailer, how can one not be inspired to practice?

I measure the dedication, nobility, humility and Bodhisattva quality of the Kaihogyo monks against what we have seen on the west in recent decades. We've experienced, unfortunately, the Richard Baker episodes, the Trungpa abuses, and recent sexual crimes committed by abbots in the west. I pick up a copy of a western Buddhist magazine, and see Genpo Big Mind nonsense offered at $15,000.00 a pop; empowerments for sale; "Zen masters" wearing clown noses.

What the Tendai monks bring to the people of Japan (and to those of us here who pay attention to these things) is inspiration. Inspiration to look at our own practices, and measure our adherence to precepts against theirs. Measure our level of unhealthy ego and humility against these kind, humble, dedicated monks.

Others have made this case far better than I so far on this thread, but I can say it is for these practices that inspire me to check my own greed, anger and delusion. Yes, these Kaihogyo monks are indeed Bodhisattvas in the best sense of the word.

"The Dhutangas are therefore a mainly physical discipline with a psychological basis and are invaluable as a complement to the greater part of the Dhamma which is a psychological discipline based on materiality (i.e., the 'possession' of a human body). The thudong bhikkhu thus makes use of these practices in so far as they help him to discipline himself in the promotion of skillful mental states like renunciation and contentment." Glimpses of the Thudong Bhikkhu Life by Bhikkhu Khantipalo
BuddhaSoup
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:06 pm

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby PorkChop » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:42 pm

oushi wrote:
PorkChop wrote:Sarvastivadan = "all exists", ie "Everything that is, is real"

Those two are quite different. I didn't say that all exist, but that which exists, is real.

Then you don't seem to understand Sarvastivadan thought, which was counter to "all that is does not exist (is illusory)" and is pretty much verbatim of what you said.

oushi wrote:My thought about boogey man exists, so it is real, but it doesn't mean that he exists in the closet. Same goes for ascetic practices of those monks. They practice is real, they can even measure the distance to the closet and find out if their assumptions were correct. If they survive...

A deluded thought may exist, my point is realizing the delusion for what it is. I don't understand your hang up on this. You seem incapable of understanding where I'm coming from. Maybe you're just too hung up on your own arrogance. Maybe you can't understand how certain practices can lead one to overcome previously imagined limitations and experience life without the constant interruption of discursive thought. What I'm saying is very clear. Maybe you should do your own walkabout and get over yourself.

"If they survive..." LOL It's been pointed out many times that people aren't dying anymore...
Listen, your tradition throws tradition out the window, wipes its a$$ with the sutras, kills the Buddha, and looks down on everybody else... we get it.
This tradition does not do that, it's never done that, it's in keeping with traditional practices in other forms - even across widely different doctrinal positions.
You ask for respect and claim to respect others.
Meanwhile, you come here, the board dedicated to this particular tradition (Tendai & T'ien T'ai) with insults about extreme fanaticism.
You can't even answer a simple question; get over yourself, you have no position here.

oushi wrote:I didn't differentiate between material and imagined. If you want to say that only material things exist, and are valid base, say it.

I've already asked you once to quit putting words in my mouth.

oushi wrote:Refute it then. What's the problem?

I already have. Meanwhile, you've refused to answer any of my questions.
User avatar
PorkChop
 
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby oushi » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:30 pm

PorkChop wrote:A deluded thought may exist, my point is realizing the delusion for what it is. I don't understand your hang up on this. You seem incapable of understanding where I'm coming from. Maybe you're just too hung up on your own arrogance. Maybe you can't understand how certain practices can lead one to overcome previously imagined limitations and experience life without the constant interruption of discursive thought. What I'm saying is very clear. Maybe you should do your own walkabout and get over yourself.

Please, try including right speech into you practice.
PorkChop wrote:"If they survive..." LOL It's been pointed out many times that people aren't dying anymore...

Was this practice flawed, and now is getting better, or was it perfect and now is becoming politically correct?
PorkChop wrote:Listen, your tradition throws tradition out the window, wipes its a$$ with the sutras, kills the Buddha, and looks down on everybody else... we get it.

My tradition...?
You can't even answer a simple question; get over yourself, you have no position here.

You seem to be quite aroused. Relax, or have a walk.
I've already asked you once to quit putting words in my mouth.

You have problem understanding your own words.
I already have. Meanwhile, you've refused to answer any of my questions.

You didn't refute a thing. You have only accused me of being Sarvastivadan. The only think I didn't answer was a provocation between fraction. I used Bodhidharma to show that such behavior may be seen as fanaticism, nothing more, and you keep on bringing some crap about wiping an a$$. Knock it off please.
I'm just sharing my opinion, which happen to be against such a practice. I see no merit in purposely risking ones life, or give it away.
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby PorkChop » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:01 am

oushi wrote:Please, try including right speech into you practice.

Why should i bother when u don't

oushi wrote:Was this practice flawed, and now is getting better, or was it perfect and now is becoming politically correct?

No this practice is being gradually perfected to the capabilities of modern humans.

oushi wrote:
PorkChop wrote:Listen, your tradition throws tradition out the window, wipes its a$$ with the sutras, kills the Buddha, and looks down on everybody else... we get it.

My tradition...?


Yeah, you quote Ch'an teaching quotes as justification of insulting non-Ch'an traditions.

oushi wrote:You seem to be quite aroused. Relax, or have a walk.

To the contrary you think anything that is not of the Ch'an tradition deserves admonishing for being non-Chan doctrine, ie "extreme form of fanatacism"

oushi wrote:You have problem understanding your own words.

No, your problem is a non-acceptance of my words because they dont conform to your Ch'an tradition; actually, given modern day Ch'an teachings, I have to question whether you have a tradition at all.

oushi wrote:You didn't refute a thing.

Bull, I think that I established that your thought is not in agreement with Madhyamaka thought at large, let alone the Prasangika position. I also said that walking is a form of meditation that has scriptural reference to the beginning of Mahayana and beyond.

oush wrote:You have only accused me of being Sarvastivadan.

No i said your statement was purely Sarvastivadan, and if u knew anything any other traditions besides your books, you would realize it was.

oushi wrote:The only think I didn't answer was a provocation between fraction. I used Bodhidharma to show that such behavior may be seen as fanaticism, nothing more, and you keep on bringing some crap about wiping an a$$. Knock it off please.


Bodhidharma is not in the T'ien T'ai tradition and neither is he in the Tendai tradition.
So you knock it off, please.

oushi wrote:I'm just sharing my opinion, which happen to be against such a practice. I see no merit in purposely risking ones life, or give it away


From your opinion:
A. You are not a bodhisattva, who would lay his/her life down for the benefits of sentient beings, which has been established earlier in this thread. B. You are thus not of the Mahayana tradition (too attached to your life and non-acceptance of sutras). C. Your opinion has no merit (based on the doctrinal position of Theravada, Mahayana, or Vajrayana).
This may be a strong position, but if u do not recognize either the Agama/Pali Sutta tradition that most buddhism is based on, or the Mahayana Sutra tradition that this school is founded on, then you really have no place to speak.
User avatar
PorkChop
 
Posts: 873
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby oushi » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:42 am

No, I have no will to speak with someone who is twisting everything.
Say what you think about me here.
User avatar
oushi
 
Posts: 1596
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:18 am

Re: Are Tendai practices of "Marathon Monks" Asceticism?

Postby Simon E. » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:00 am

oushi wrote:No, I have no will to speak with someone who is twisting everything.

So there is a human being beyond the solipstitic platitudes ?
Simon E.
 
Posts: 2543
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

PreviousNext

Return to Tendai

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests

>