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Could someone please explain this rule? - Dhamma Wheel

Could someone please explain this rule?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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manas
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Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby manas » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:47 am

Last edited by manas on Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

alan
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby alan » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:53 am

Just one of many pointless rules.

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theravada_guy
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby theravada_guy » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:58 am

I have Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "Buddhist Monastic Code" in hard copy. I haven't started reading it yet. The smaller volume I have on the same subject didn't mention anything about this. But, Ajahn Thanissaro's book (it's actuallly two volumes) is online in PDF format. You might be able to find it in there. But, other than that, I can't help you. I know, this post doesn't really help you all that much, I just thought I would throw that book out there as a possible source for an answer.
With metta,

Justin

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Goofaholix
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:01 am


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manas
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby manas » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:09 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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manas
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby manas » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:55 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

alan
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby alan » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:06 am

Rules, rules, rules. Rules are boring.
If you cannot live a decent life without obsessing about pointless, ridiculous rules, then what is your problem?
I have to seriously question people who need to submit themselves to a legion of rules.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:26 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Buckwheat
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby Buckwheat » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:17 am

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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manas
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby manas » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:27 am

Whether this rule was instituted by the Buddha or not (and there might well have been a valid reason for it back in ancient India of 2600 years ago that we in the modern world cannot now comprehend), I'm not going to concern myself any longer that I cannot see it's necessity. The entire pali canon is available online for us laypersons to read, anyway. And if we study some basic pali, we can train ourselves to recite the entire tipitaka - in pali - without having to ask a monk to first recite it for us. And so to worry any further about this little rule, for me, would be like seeing a large and beautiful elephant walking by, and noticing that a bit of vine or creeper was caught in one of it's toenails. So I'm just letting it go now. But I thank everyone who commented.

:anjali:
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

Jhana4
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:21 am

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:35 am

Greetings Jhana4,

Well the tradition itself says that "minor rules" can be abolished.

If any group decided to boldly make a determination (hopefully a well educated one) on precisely which were the "minor rules", then that is possible.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Jhana4
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:42 am

That sort of comes full circle back to the point Alan and I made. A lot of useless things ( and possibly regressive ) for the sake of tradition. That is where starting a new "tradition" provides an opportunity. To easily leave things behind that people in long established institutions do not have the political power or courage to leave behind.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:50 am

Greetings Jhana4,

In the absence of a Theravada figure-head (i.e. equivalent to HHDL) means that different communities will do and interpret things differently. The issue of bhikkhuni ordination serves as a case-in-point.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

alan
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby alan » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:25 am

A perfect example of idiotic rules determining modern behavior!

alan
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby alan » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:33 am

Buckwheat,
Holy Sh*t! Are you seriously comparing Charlie Parker with a rule book?

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Anagarika
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby Anagarika » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:34 am

And, of course, great caution should be exercised before any rules, whether minor or major, be discarded. While there is no "Supreme Court" of Theravada to interpret Vinaya or apply these laws to modern society, it is also appropriate that before the Theravada rejects any minor/major rule, there should be serious analysis of these rules and a consensus developed as to their interpretation and application. We're fortunate that we have scholars such as Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Bhikkhu Bodhi who are willing and able to comment on issues that arise.

My own sense is that rules matter. What is the Vinaya of the Tiptaka if they are not, in part, rules? If rules do not matter, then the Tipitaka begins to not matter And without the foundation of the Tipitaka, we may as well let the monks make up the rules as they go. As Western Buddhism morphs into Dharma Burgers and Zen Hotels, I'd just as soon retain as many of these dusty old rules as possible; Buddhism without rules will cease to be Buddhism at all.

alan
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby alan » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:09 am

That is an odd understanding of the Dhamma, which is about understanding, and not about rules, or who is best at following rules.
Rules are for people who are too dumb to figure out how to live for themselves.

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Monkey Mind
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby Monkey Mind » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:25 am

Nay, most people are too dumb to figure out, themselves, how to live in cooperation with other humans. Pick any page from any newspaper for amble evidence of this.

I used to think that laws against jay-walking were completely stupid. I can, on my own accord, look both ways and judge for myself if it was safe to cross the street. The first time I jay-walked, and a group of kids mimicked my behavior, I thought twice about my logic. The kids had no reference for how fast cars are driving, or the ability/ inability of drivers to see pedestrians and respond appropriately. I don't jay-walk any more.

Many of the rules of the vinaya, though specific to monastics, provide a good template for human cooperative behavior.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710

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retrofuturist
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:38 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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