Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Kim O'Hara » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:59 am

Fu Ri Shin wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I think the only thing this topic has demonstrated is that Samanthabhadra is intolerant.

Did I miss anything else of note?

Wouldn't appear so. I had a feeling from the beginning we'd end up here:
Fu Ri Shin wrote:I'd like to point out that while this topic's title is a question about tolerance, there is neither a single question nor a mention of tolerance in the original post.

Seems like this is an attempt at pushing a view rather than opening a discussion.

Perhaps I should have just said "don't feed the troll".

Agreed on all points.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:23 am

CrawfordHollow wrote:What exactly do you mean by saying that gods orchestrate this emperical reality? And in what sense do you think that they are real?


Question: If someone realizes this in meditation, does he have to know all the deities to recognize them?”

Rinpoche: A practitioner of meditation may not know the deities of the bardo but will have a stable mind, so in the bardo he or she will have a peaceful and stable mind and be able to recognize appearances as being their own manifestations. They will have that understanding. If we can recognize the deities individually and merge with them or pray to be reborn in a Buddha realm, then that would be very beneficial.

Question: How much is the deity an own existent and how much is it built up through trust in Buddhism, through the power of mantras and belief?

Rinpoche: The deities are those of the dharmata, or the true nature of phenomena, and therefore they are natural manifestations which are latent within our body and mind. So they manifest in the bardo from the true nature. Whether we are a dharma practitioner or not, the deities will manifest. Normally we cannot recognize them. Just as the five wisdoms are our own nature, there are the five kleshas.

When purified, the five wisdoms shine forth as the five Buddhas of the families. They are naturally present, but normally we don’t recognize them. When they manifest in the bardo, we may not recognize them. If one can recognize them, then that is very beneficial.

The second phowa is known as the phowa of the sambhogakaya. The sambhogakaya phowa involves seeing everything as the mandala of the deities, wrathful and peaceful, as in the zhi-khro practice itself.

ALL PHENOMENA APPEAR AS THE MANDALA OF THE PEACEFUL AND
WRATHFUL DEITIES. THESE DEITIES DISSOLVE AS A RAINBOW IN THE SKY.
RELAX THE MIND IN THE NATURAL STATE WHICH IS THE UNION OF
APPEARANCE AND EMPTINESS, FREE FROM COMPLEXITIES. ALL SOUNDS
ARE THE SPEECH OF THE WRATHFUL AND PEACEFUL DEITIES. THIS
EMPTINESS SOUND DISSOLVES AS THE DRAGON'S VOICE OF THUNDER
DISAPPEARS IN THE SKY


As said the Vajrayana deities exists with in our subtle bodies, yes there is a platonic realm but why do you think its somehow separate from you, its in and around you and not very far from you. Vajrayana deities are anthropomorphic gods and they are very much real and not just symbolic and you can have a dialogue with them. To achieve non-dualism you need to go beyond Samanthabhadra or the Adi Buddha. Samanthabhadra emanates from You, you are the base for all these gods. I don't find any dualism here.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:38 am

black_tea wrote:Assuming that you are actually being serious and not just trolling...

I personally think that things like rebirth and karma are pretty necessary concepts, and that without them the whole system doesn't hang together as well. However, I can't force people to believe the way that I do -- people will believe or they won't, and it's possible they may change their minds at least once in their lives but no one can force them to do so. It really isn't your right or mine to try. You can put forth your own viewpoint (hopefully in a tactful way), but that's all you can really do. Making sweeping pronouncements and ridiculing others is not going to change any minds -- it's going to make people not take you seriously and not want to hear what you have to say. Besides, I'm pretty sure that ridiculing others would fall under wrong speech.

You also keep bringing up deities as examples of things that real Buddhists should know about. Yet, there are many schools of Buddhism besides Vajrayana -- I'm not secular, but these 100 deities have nothing to do with my practice. Buddhism isn't monolithic. There are basic ideas that the different schools share, that make them Buddhist, but beyond that there is a lot of variation (84,000 dharma doors and all that). So be careful about declaring what constitutes real Buddhists and real Buddhism -- you really aren't speaking for your co-religionists in the East or West, only yourself.


Not only rebirth and karma are important even the hundred peaceful and wrathful deities are very much important and without them the doctrine of Buddhism as a whole shatters, the deities are inseparable from the doctrine of Buddha and the path of attaining the Buddha nature. That's why its so important for Buddhists to recognize that they exist.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby CrawfordHollow » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:44 am

You are free to hold any view or interpretation of the teachings as you wish, as is anybody else. I just hope that you don't lose sight of what is essential in Buddhism. If you were a serious practitioner you would rejoice is whatever form of Dharma practice people chose to participate in. I'm sure you know that this is part of the seven-limbed practice, so it really is central to Vajrayana. Do you have a teacher that you can talk to about these things? I asked you this before but I get the feeling that you are not really reading my posts.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby CrawfordHollow » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:49 am

OK really, lets be honest here.

Have you actually studied the Guhyagarbha Tantra with a teacher? Have you have any shitro empowerments? You don't realize that buddha nature is not something to be attained but is the pure nature of the mind that cannot be improved upon, lost, or obtained? And how does the Buddhist doctrine fall apart without the peaceful and wrathful deities that you believe that you understand?
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:51 am

CrawfordHollow wrote:You are free to hold any view or interpretation of the teachings as you wish, as is anybody else. I just hope that you don't lose sight of what is essential in Buddhism. If you were a serious practitioner you would rejoice is whatever form of Dharma practice people chose to participate in. I'm sure you know that this is part of the seven-limbed practice, so it really is central to Vajrayana. Do you have a teacher that you can talk to about these things? I asked you this before but I get the feeling that you are not really reading my posts.


I have friends who claim that they can dialogue with Buddha. Buddha indeed exists in an eternal realm. That's what Vajrayana stood for.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:03 am

CrawfordHollow wrote:OK really, lets be honest here.

Have you actually studied the Guhyagarbha Tantra with a teacher? Have you have any shitro empowerments? You don't realize that buddha nature is not something to be attained but is the pure nature of the mind that cannot be improved upon, lost, or obtained? And how does the Buddhist doctrine fall apart without the peaceful and wrathful deities that you believe that you understand?


Yes, I have studied it and I practice it and I hold the authentic view.

The Sūtra That Shows the Way to Awakening explains:

"Mañjuśrī, whoever sees that all phenomena are equal, nondual, and inseparable possesses the authentic view."

The peaceful and wrathful deities are inseparable from the path to Nirvana and it is very much essential to recognize that they exist.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby CrawfordHollow » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:06 am

Who did you study with? And what is the authentic view, that they exist and if you don't believe that they exist the way you do you are not an authentic Buddhist?
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby CrawfordHollow » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:07 am

You know, I don't even know why I am having this conversation, good night.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:16 am

CrawfordHollow wrote:Who did you study with? And what is the authentic view, that they exist and if you don't believe that they exist the way you do you are not an authentic Buddhist?


Let's make one thing very clear the Vajrayana deities are not symbolic, they are real deities having a ontology of their own and mandalas should be studied and practised silently and alone not in groups or mass worship, that will drive you away from the gods.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
Samanthabhadra
 
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby CrawfordHollow » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:29 am

Thanks for the advice. But wait- how can I be driven away from the gods if they are non-dual with me???? Your authentic view on vajrayana is really starting to confuse me. I should have taken my own advice and gone to bed before I anger any gods.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby CrawfordHollow » Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:31 am

Just teasing, buddy. Good night.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Quiet Heart » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:43 am

:smile:
He is talking about one branch of one tradition of Buddhisim.
Buddhisim is not a single tradition or sect.
There are some traditions of Buddhisim who would say that all "dieties" or "gods" are simply a delusion/illusion generated by your mind and imperfect understanding.
Irregardless if that is true or not, Buddhisim (as a collective) aloows and treats respectively all views.
Which is EXACTLY why even so-called "Secular Buddhists" must be tolerated....so, in turn, your particular view of Buddhisim is tolerated also.
:smile:
P.S. Sorry about the edits, but my fingers are all fumbled today.
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in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
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From What Book, 1998, p. 52
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:25 am

I am 100% convinced this is trolling, people shouldn't waste their time, and personally, that's my authentic view;)
"We're chained to the world and we all gotta pull" -Tom Waits
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:31 am

My advice to you "Samantabhadra" is to go ask your teacher (if you have a teacher, which it seems you do not) about your theories and see what they say.

The discussion is going in circles and so it has come to that time (yet) again...

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"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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