Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allione

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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby Ayu » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:28 pm

Maybe they could be cheaper outside of USA?

Our buddhist center in hannover has to charge also money for the lessons, because the westerners do not know and follow the principle of dana and otherwise a handful of people has to do all the work AND pay for it. This is not possible.
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:22 pm

Jikan wrote:This may be overstating things a bit. It's impossible to say what a five-star hotel in the middle of rural Colorado would cost, because there are none. The closest comparison might be a five-star hotel in Denver. If you pay retail, can you get a five-star hotel room in Denver, with a lama and a sangha and a stupa, for $300 per?
The lama and sangha cost extra, it's not in the $300. As for the stupa, well... I am sure I can get by without it. Actually, I am getting by without it! :tongue:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:36 pm

Excuse my shoddy memory but isn't this the same Lama that requires a $15k retainer fee? No wonder then that it costs $300 per nigh to pitch a tent. I mean, where else is the money going to come from?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby jbaumannmontilla » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:10 pm

The discussion here is misinformed, slanderous, and abusive towards people who have devoted their lives to spreading the dharma. Thank you all for reminding me why I stopped following this board. Bye.
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:06 pm

jbaumannmontilla wrote:The discussion here is misinformed, slanderous, and abusive towards people who have devoted their lives to spreading the dharma. Thank you all for reminding me why I stopped following this board. Bye.


I guess this isn't the right time to ask you for your opinion on the Myth in Buddhism thread?
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby Jikan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:27 pm

jbaumannmontilla wrote:The discussion here is misinformed, slanderous, and abusive towards people who have devoted their lives to spreading the dharma. Thank you all for reminding me why I stopped following this board. Bye.


That's one approach.

Another would be to show just what in this thread is misinformed, slanderous, and abusive, in order to set those problems right.

For myself, I look forward to paying a visit to Tara Mandala at some point, in particular to see the Nala Pema Dundul stupa.
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby T. Chokyi » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:29 pm

Jikan wrote:My favorite library reading room anywhere on this earth is on the campus of the University of New Mexico. And if you get hungry, Frontier restaurant is right there across the street. I adore Albuquerque.




http://www.frontierrestaurant.com/food.html
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby rai » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:43 pm

i think that price $204 to $329 is for a retreat with ChNN , and suggested donation for camping during retreat is 100-200 $ from what i can see.

they suggest some nearby lodging options but the price is more less the same or more http://taramandala.org/programs-retreat ... g-options/

then if one want to come "off season" - http://taramandala.org/temple-and-facil ... at-cabins/ it is around 30 euro per night to stay in retreat hut if one is staying one week.
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby Dronma » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:44 am

pemachophel wrote:I don't see the issue under discussion as an either/or situation. 84,000 entrances to the Dharma. If TM isn't to one's personal taste, no one says you have to go there. If you want to go there and can't afford the published prices, as has been said before, you can probably work something out. One size does not fit all, nor does one style of practice.

Once, many years ago when I was running my own youthful Puritanical number, my Root Guru told me that a true yogi should be comfortable anywhere, from a palatial mansion with golden spigots to a totally empty cave and everything in between. IMO, being critical of wealth and opulence is its own form of grasping.


Pema Rigdzin wrote:I was criticizing this trend in the manifestation of the Tibetan tradition in general here, where the economic environment and circumstances are very different than in Asia. And I'm not suggesting any of the people running these centers are bad people, or that the lamas are bad people. I'm saying how about we be a little more frugal and practical instead of going the way of opulence at the expense of more people actually being able to participate more fully. I mean, I'm not calling for nothing but 4 walls and a roof; one can decorate a shrine and center/gompa pretty nicely without needing to go all top shelf. Our goal is to liberate as many beings as we can, with the commitment to liberating them all, right?


I agree with both comments, because there is no contradiction if we are always trying to follow the golden mean. :smile:

PS. Since there is no ego, who is going to liberate whom??? :juggling:
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby T. Chokyi » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:31 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Excuse my shoddy memory but isn't this the same Lama that requires a $15k retainer fee? No wonder then that it costs $300 per nigh to pitch a tent. I mean, where else is the money going to come from?


Hi Greg, I have some vague memory of hearing that somewhere too, even the $15K retainer sticks... but I can't remember where, nor do I suppose is it any of my business how much a "speaker" gets for "speaking" at a University, although I can't imagine it being that high, are you sure?

I was thinking that if this amount is right, perhaps she asked that so she could build something...so she could pay for it.

I checked the "history in a nutshell" for Tara Mandala and gathered it was a relatively long time coming...

Origins of Tara Mandala:
http://taramandala.org/teaching/the-history-of-tara-mandala-with-lama-tsultrim-allione/

They don't sound like ka-zillionaires to me...

1993 looked for land, found on Sept 18th 1993 began buying the land.
1994 moved onto the land 10 years no buildings just tents, teepees & yurts,
meditation hall was a 30 foot yurt for 15 years.
2005 able to build first building community building with offices, bookstores,
had a kitchen, kitchen had been under a tree outside with no walls, had showers,
bathtubs, and toilets which were not available before.
2007 residence hall with sinks in each room.
2007 foundation for temple, 2008 temple went up.
2009 in temple on third floor, sames size as original yurt.

:shrug:
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby JinpaRangdrol » Mon May 13, 2013 10:00 pm

As a close student of Lama Tsultrim, and a long-time volunteer at Tara Mandala, I am shocked to see some of the things being said on this thread (especially by you, Greg). The idea that LT or Tara Mandala staffers are "profiting" from the retreat costs and fundraisers is a little absurd. Especially if you have never actually set foot on the land. They started with a humble complex of yurts (are those too fancy, too?), outdoor showers, an outdoor kitchen, and wooden platforms. Eventually they built the Nyala Pema Duddul stupa out of rocks found on the land (no rocks were even cut, except for a simple Snow Lion carving on the throne), which served as the first "permanent" structure on the land. All was well and good, but the seasonal restrictions of the rocky mountains and the ever-growing sangha made it necessary to build some more lasting structures. So, with the help of A LOT of generous donors (which there is no shortage of in America...let's be real...), we built the community building (containing an INDOOR kitchen and office space for the resident staff members), a very simple dormitory (so people who may not be physically able to camp in a tent or drive 20 miles on a dirt road in the middle of winter could stay on the land), and a temple. The temple is unsurprisingly the most extravagant of the buildings, but is that really a problem? It's the world's first Tibetan Buddhist temple completely devoted to the Sacred Feminine (a life-long mission of Lama Tsultrim's...something that has been personally endorsed by HH The Karmapa, ChNNR, Adzom Paylo Rinpoche, etc.), and it is still a work in progress. There are no lavish chandeliers, no giant statues... just a beautiful, simple Tibetan-style gompa. The paintings are gorgeous, because they were done by Lama Gyurme Ruojie, a much-loved member of our family. The reason the project was so expensive had a lot to do with the ecologically-friendly building style, the self-sustained heating system and plumbing, the remote location, and the fact that it's big enough to accommodate the number of people who wish to take part in Tara Mandala's events.
Fundamentally, if you're going to knock TM for having a pretty temple, then fine. But that's a pretty minor offense, if you ask me.

Now, as far as affordability... I am 22, and have been studying with Lama Tsultrim since I was 13. Since my parents lived in a neighboring town, I grew up with the Tara Mandala family. Now, I've never been wealthy. To this day, I struggle greatly with financial issues, massive debt, and even occasional serious hunger. The ONLY person who has always been there for me, in more ways than I could possibly mention, is Lama Tsultrim. I have never been denied teachings or retreats, have always been given a place to stay, and have been given the opportunity to take part in experiences that I would have NEVER had access to without her generosity. I'm not a unique case, either. There are a lot of us, devoted students with very little to offer except our devotion and sincere practice. She and Dave (who passed away with incredible signs of realization) built a community for everybody, not just the rich folk that have made contributions to the building projects.

By the way:
gregkavarnos wrote:5-Star hotels charge that sort of money for semi board and accomodation AND it is not in a tent AND they PAY staff to ensure the smooth running of the facilities AND they have to maintain the facilities AND they still make a (hefty) profit.

So let's get real here for a second.


Yes, let's get real, Greg... Tara Mandala provides three organic vegetarian meals a day, pays about a dozen year-round resident staff members (they also pay for their housing, most of which are rather nice cabins), provides stipends to long-term volunteers, maintains gorgeous & sustainable facilities in the middle of nowhere, and uses any extra money to support the countless dharma activities that go on at Tara Mandala...including a publishing company. Is it really so crazy that a three-day retreat with Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche costs a $204 minimum? Come on, man. Check yourself.

I am personally hurt by some of the slanderous things that have been said here against a woman who has done more for Dharma in the west than anybody I have ever met. Lama Tsultrim is a dakini if there ever has been one. To imply that she is personally profiting from the operational costs at Tara Mandala is ridiculous, especially since those of you who are making such accusations have never met her or been to Tara Mandala.
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby JinpaRangdrol » Mon May 13, 2013 10:09 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Jikan wrote:This may be overstating things a bit. It's impossible to say what a five-star hotel in the middle of rural Colorado would cost, because there are none. The closest comparison might be a five-star hotel in Denver. If you pay retail, can you get a five-star hotel room in Denver, with a lama and a sangha and a stupa, for $300 per?
The lama and sangha cost extra, it's not in the $300. As for the stupa, well... I am sure I can get by without it. Actually, I am getting by without it! :tongue:


Are you not familiar with the dana system? It's a suggested amount for a reason. If you can't afford it, give less. If you can afford more, give more. It's your tendrel with the teacher, so it's up to you. It would be improper for the dana amount to be included in the retreat cost, as that would institute a cost for dharma itself... isn't that your whole problem, anyway?
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby Ayu » Mon May 13, 2013 10:12 pm

JinpaRangdrol wrote:As a close student of Lama Tsultrim, and a long-time volunteer at Tara Mandala, I am shocked to see some of the things being said on this thread (especially by you, Greg). The idea that LT or Tara Mandala staffers are "profiting" from the retreat costs and fundraisers is a little absurd. Especially if you have never actually set foot on the land. They started with a humble complex of yurts (are those too fancy, too?), outdoor showers, an outdoor kitchen, and wooden platforms. Eventually they built the Nyala Pema Duddul stupa out of rocks found on the land (no rocks were even cut, except for a simple Snow Lion carving on the throne), which served as the first "permanent" structure on the land. All was well and good, but the seasonal restrictions of the rocky mountains and the ever-growing sangha made it necessary to build some more lasting structures. So, with the help of A LOT of generous donors (which there is no shortage of in America...let's be real...), we built the community building (containing an INDOOR kitchen and office space for the resident staff members), a very simple dormitory (so people who may not be physically able to camp in a tent or drive 20 miles on a dirt road in the middle of winter could stay on the land), and a temple. The temple is unsurprisingly the most extravagant of the buildings, but is that really a problem? It's the world's first Tibetan Buddhist temple completely devoted to the Sacred Feminine (a life-long mission of Lama Tsultrim's...something that has been personally endorsed by HH The Karmapa, ChNNR, Adzom Paylo Rinpoche, etc.), and it is still a work in progress. There are no lavish chandeliers, no giant statues... just a beautiful, simple Tibetan-style gompa. The paintings are gorgeous, because they were done by Lama Gyurme Ruojie, a much-loved member of our family. The reason the project was so expensive had a lot to do with the ecologically-friendly building style, the self-sustained heating system and plumbing, the remote location, and the fact that it's big enough to accommodate the number of people who wish to take part in Tara Mandala's events.
Fundamentally, if you're going to knock TM for having a pretty temple, then fine. But that's a pretty minor offense, if you ask me.

Now, as far as affordability... I am 22, and have been studying with Lama Tsultrim since I was 13. Since my parents lived in a neighboring town, I grew up with the Tara Mandala family. Now, I've never been wealthy. To this day, I struggle greatly with financial issues, massive debt, and even occasional serious hunger. The ONLY person who has always been there for me, in more ways than I could possibly mention, is Lama Tsultrim. I have never been denied teachings or retreats, have always been given a place to stay, and have been given the opportunity to take part in experiences that I would have NEVER had access to without her generosity. I'm not a unique case, either. There are a lot of us, devoted students with very little to offer except our devotion and sincere practice. She and Dave (who passed away with incredible signs of realization) built a community for everybody, not just the rich folk that have made contributions to the building projects.

By the way:
gregkavarnos wrote:5-Star hotels charge that sort of money for semi board and accomodation AND it is not in a tent AND they PAY staff to ensure the smooth running of the facilities AND they have to maintain the facilities AND they still make a (hefty) profit.

So let's get real here for a second.


Yes, let's get real, Greg... Tara Mandala provides three organic vegetarian meals a day, pays about a dozen year-round resident staff members (they also pay for their housing, most of which are rather nice cabins), provides stipends to long-term volunteers, maintains gorgeous & sustainable facilities in the middle of nowhere, and uses any extra money to support the countless dharma activities that go on at Tara Mandala...including a publishing company. Is it really so crazy that a three-day retreat with Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche costs a $204 minimum? Come on, man. Check yourself.

I am personally hurt by some of the slanderous things that have been said here against a woman who has done more for Dharma in the west than anybody I have ever met. Lama Tsultrim is a dakini if there ever has been one. To imply that she is personally profiting from the operational costs at Tara Mandala is ridiculous, especially since those of you who are making such accusations have never met her or been to Tara Mandala.



I have to say: this is a good posting, JingpaRangdrol. Well done.
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon May 13, 2013 10:32 pm

Dear Jinpa,

I was going to write a long and detailed answer, but thought better of it.

I am glad to hear that you have such positive experiences with the centre and Lama Tsultrim.

May your experiences continue to be positive and enlightening.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby Sherab Rigdrol » Tue May 14, 2013 8:25 pm

For those who care the UMN talk on May 22nd in ABQ, NM is no longer on the website. I contacted T East and they are emailing me with the details as to what happened. I really hope it's just a website glitch :(
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby oldbob » Thu May 16, 2013 1:03 pm

:namaste:

All excellent posts. :good: Taking the shoes off the alter, putting the shoes on the alter, everyone earns merit.

Lama Tsultrim is a real Dharma Teacher.

She is one of the very few students of ChNNR whom I feel can give transmission. I have experienced that from her, from the early 1980's, in Italy and Valley Cottage.

While her background is impressive,

http://taramandala.org/about/lama-tsultrim/

it is her capacity to give transmission that sets her apart from other Western Dharma teachers.

For those who can afford the transportation, retreat fees, accommodation and offering costs, certainly Tara Mandala is an ideal place to take teachings.

It is also ideal for those who live nearby, and who are sponsored by Lama Tsultrim, and don't pay in money.

Nice to hear that Tara Mandala "works things out" about retreat fees. Still I fear that many people are put off, and stay away, because of the published retreat fees, and high camping costs.

Perhaps, as more people practice and evolve, there will be social hierarchies and pricing structures that reflect this evolution. Perhaps then, recognizing the Buddha seed within everyone, equal access to the Teachings, for all, will be possible.

Wherever you go, there you are.

So whether you have the great good fortune to attend teachings in beautiful Colorado, (enjoying the eye candy of the magnificent snow mountains), or you are an invalid, unable to travel beyond your bed room, and listening to teachings on webcasts, perhaps the challenge is the same:

to be content where-ever you are, and with whatever you have, or don't have.

ob
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby ngodrup » Thu May 16, 2013 4:42 pm

Are Buddhists the only people with money issues?
Five star hotels, last time I was checked into one--
and that was 2000-- were about 1200 a night. That's
a far cry from a couple hundred a week.

Dharma *is* expensive. Who are the chogyals and
patrons who are *supposed to* make Dharma free?
Well, there *are* a few foundations that sponsor...
In the west, as long, as Buddhism is a minority
religion; as long as generosity is weak; we will
continue on this pay as you go model.
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby Jikan » Thu May 16, 2013 6:10 pm

FWIW, a comparative example:

I recently attended the Dzogchen Community retreat in Baja California Sur, Mexico. The standard fare approach involved staying in a resort hotel (modest by resort hotel standards) for $89/night, and paying $10 for lunch and $16 for dinner (US funds). That added up to $480 for food alone... enough to send a body on another retreat. By contrast, I was able to rent a studio apartment with a beach view for the equivalent of $50/night and cook my own food, which cost less than $20 US overall, plus a few splurges at roadside taco stands (where 60 pesos or $5US buys you an enormous plate of good homestyle cooking). Others took an even more spartan approach and camped on the beach or slept in cars.

This class divide between the comfortable and the clever (people who have to be creative to make it happen I mean) was most interesting to me as an academic and as a practitioner, because the access to the teachings and teacher was identical for all.

Incidentally, those who are interested in *not* overpaying for accomodations at Dharma events may wish to take a close look at Tsegyalgar West. It's possible to practice there very inexpensively if you can get a cheap enough flight down there.
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby JKhedrup » Thu May 16, 2013 7:35 pm

I recently had my first freelance translation gig here. It was video footage of a highly regarded lama (I have to ask the film maker before I release the name) and a senior nun in lifetime semi-retreat speaking about Tsultrim Allione. She is certainly regarded as a highly accomplished practitioner, regardless of what one thinks of tulku titles (i am a bit ambivalent about those in many cases). It is also clear that well known masters such as HH Karmapa and ChNN regard her as a legitimate teacher. Does that mean she is necessarily perfect? No, but i do think we can infer that she is qualified to guide students.

As for the money, i agree it is expensive, but lama tsultrim's activities are vast. In the footage i saw it is clear she sponsors many destitute nuns to do retreat, for example. I think rather than keeping money she tries to spread it around as much as she can.

Would I take her as a guru? I'd have to meet her and investigate her teachings for several years to determine that. Would I take general teachings from her? Absolutely.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
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Re: Tara Mandala Chogyal Namkhai Norbu & Lama Tsultrim Allio

Postby MalaBeads » Thu May 16, 2013 7:50 pm

The money thing is interesting.

It might be worth remembering that Longchenpa was one of the nearly destitute types. Even in his culture, which was poor to begin with.

Luckily, things have improved overall for practitioners.

In any case, the point is to be happy with your circumstances, whatever they are.

:smile:
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