Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Jesse » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:34 pm

First of all its not a fundamentalist approach, someone who goes with evidence is not a fundamentalist, stating that the earth is not flat is not a fundamentalist position. That's how silly your question is.


Please provide your evidence. Lmfao.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Nikolay » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:36 pm

I find the initial post and subsequent comments by the same poster to be needlessly aggressive, almost to the point where I would start to suspect a false flag operation from the "opposing side" (don't slam me for dualism!). Whatever views people hold, they should be all equally dear to us and we should wish them nothing less than ultimate happiness and eventually liberation. If they hold the wrong view, they deserve our compassion tenfold.

That said, I think "secular Buddhism" is an unwelcome and ultimately harmful influence. We should make every effort to explain the correct view, but we should do it kindly, peacefully, and without being seen as obnoxious and intrusive.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:38 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:These terms "us" and "we" you keep using, do you mean them in a "royal" sense or do you actually believe your view represents that of all "real" Buddhists. For example, your view does not coincide with mine. Does that mean I am not Buddhist? Does that mean I have a wrong view, just because I do not agree with you?


If it contradicts evidence then yes your view of Buddhism is wrong. "We" or "Us" or "Them" has nothing to do with it.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:47 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Samanthabhadra wrote:
Simon E. wrote:There is an eastern mind ?


Yes, Asian thought is not positivistic, for us the mind and brain are two different things and our epistemology is different.

And this is true of all Asians, and the inverse is true for all Caucasians ?



No, both the east and the west knew about it. The east called it the Mandala and the west called it the Pleroma. Its like there are atheistic Asians and atheistic Caucasians. There were people both in the east and the west who knew the truth and majority of people who didn't knew about it.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:54 pm

First of all its not a fundamentalist approach, someone who goes with evidence is not a fundamentalist, stating that the earth is not flat is not a fundamentalist position. That's how silly your question is.
It is a fundamentalist approach. All fundamentalists believe they have the monopoly on truth. All fundamentalists believe they have irrefutable evidence that supports their view.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:55 pm

Samanthabhadra wrote:If it contradicts evidence then yes your view of Buddhism is wrong. "We" or "Us" or "Them" has nothing to do with it.
And your evidence is?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Simon E. » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:57 pm

So Caucasians also can have the ' eastern mind ' ? :popcorn:
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:57 pm

ghost01 wrote:
First of all its not a fundamentalist approach, someone who goes with evidence is not a fundamentalist, stating that the earth is not flat is not a fundamentalist position. That's how silly your question is.


Please provide your evidence. Lmfao.


Both scholarly and empirical evidence is on my side. For scholarly evidence read the works of Dr. Alan Wallace.

And all empirical evidence is pointing to a hyper-cosmic God.

Concept of hypercosmic God wins templeton prize
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:59 pm

Simon E. wrote:So Caucasians also can have the ' eastern mind ' ? :popcorn:


Of course, Yes. Its just they are never taught about it.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:04 pm

Samanthabhadra wrote:Both scholarly and empirical evidence is on my side. For scholarly evidence read the works of Dr. Alan Wallace.

And all empirical evidence is pointing to a hyper-cosmic God.

Concept of hypercosmic God wins templeton prize
I do not consider either of those sources relevant or valid.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:06 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
First of all its not a fundamentalist approach, someone who goes with evidence is not a fundamentalist, stating that the earth is not flat is not a fundamentalist position. That's how silly your question is.
It is a fundamentalist approach. All fundamentalists believe they have the monopoly on truth. All fundamentalists believe they have irrefutable evidence that supports their view.


Yet an educated man easily know on whose side the evidence is.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:09 pm

Samanthabhadra wrote:Yet an educated man easily know on whose side the evidence is.
So I am uneducated?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:16 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Samanthabhadra wrote:Both scholarly and empirical evidence is on my side. For scholarly evidence read the works of Dr. Alan Wallace.

And all empirical evidence is pointing to a hyper-cosmic God.

Concept of hypercosmic God wins templeton prize
I do not consider either of those sources relevant.


Obviously how can you see the relevance. Its because you don't know what the truth is. I am seeing the big picture which you can't see.

"While Buddhism is deemed nontheistic, the Vedas are regarded as polytheistic, and the Bible is monotheistic, we have seen that the cosmogonies of Vajrayana Buddhism, Vedanta, and Neoplatonic Christianity have so much in common that they could almost be regarded as varying interpretations of a single theory. Moreover, the commonality does not end there, for in the Near East, the writings of Plotinus (205-270) also influenced Islamic and Jewish theories of creation. This apparent unity could be attributed to mere coincidence, or to the historical propagation of a single, speculative, metaphysical theory throughout south Asia and the Near East. For example, the Upanisads may well have influenced the writings of early Mah›y›na thinkers in India, and they could also have made their way to the Near East, where they might have inspired the writings of Plotinus. On the other hand, Plotinus declared that his theories were based on his own experiential insights, and similar claims have been made by many Buddhist and Ved›ntin contemplatives. If these cosmogonies are indeed based upon valid introspective knowledge, then there may some plausibility to the claims of many contemplatives throughout the world that introspective inquiry can lead to knowledge, not only of the ultimate ground of being, but of the fundamental laws of nature as well."

- Dr. Alan Wallace.

The empirical evidence is in support of this theory by Alan Wallace, Buddhist Scholar. I don't know what your views on Buddhism is and hence I cannot speak about it. If its contradictory to this empirical evidence then yes your view of Buddhism is wrong and you need to learn still more things and accept that you were wrong.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:18 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Samanthabhadra wrote:Yet an educated man easily know on whose side the evidence is.
So I am uneducated?


Not uneducated. I didn't said that. Perhaps ignorant of the recent developments in science and religious studies done by various scholars.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:26 pm

Why should I care what scholars and scientists have to say about Buddhism? Do they have the monopoly on truth?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Astus » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:32 pm

Samanthabhadra wrote:First of all its not a fundamentalist approach, someone who goes with evidence is not a fundamentalist, stating that the earth is not flat is not a fundamentalist position. That's how silly your question is.


In Buddhist cosmology Jambudvipa is flat, surrounded by ocean, has Sumeru at its northern end and a huge tree in its centre. How does that match our modern understanding of a round Earth? It doesn't.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Jikan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:35 pm

Samanthabhadra wrote:
Jikan wrote:Is this more fundamentalist approach any more effective in propagating the Dharma? If so, how do you know?



First of all its not a fundamentalist approach, someone who goes with evidence is not a fundamentalist, stating that the earth is not flat is not a fundamentalist position. That's how silly your question is.

As far as how it is more effective in propagating the Dharma is concerned Vajrayana is considered to be the culmination of all Buddhist teachings and it imbibes the views of all other schools of Buddhism in it.

Dzogchen Rinpoche (2007: p. 89) holds that:

"When we study and practice the so-called lower and higher yanas, we might hear that the most sublime, or the pinnacle of all teachings are those of dzogchen, and this is true. The "lower" yanas of the shravaka and bodhisattva paths, the "higher" paths of the tantras, and the "pinnacle" path of dzogchen are distinguished from one another in this way. This gradation shows the various ways in which it is appropriate for beings of differing propensities to proceed upon the path. Ideally, a practitioner proceeds from the lower levels of practice to the higher levels, and then to the summit. This does not mean that the lower levels of practice are to be disparaged or ignored. We should not focus on the higher paths at the expense of the lower paths..."


You are posing the question of whether "we" should tolerate "their" position. This us-versus-them aspect of your position throughout this thread can be fairly characterized as fundamentalistic, as is the ease with which you dismiss legitimate questions as "silly."

Further, your argument in the post quoted above demonstrates that Vajrayana traditions generally favor Vajrayana teachings. This is true: Vajrayana is presented in this way. And? How does this advance or support your argument in favor of Buddhist cosmology?

moving on...

Samanthabhadra wrote:No, both the east and the west knew about it. The east called it the Mandala and the west called it the Pleroma. Its like there are atheistic Asians and atheistic Caucasians. There were people both in the east and the west who knew the truth and majority of people who didn't knew about it.


Recommended reading:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Tim ... zVdQfAKVgC
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Simon E. » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:37 pm

Samanthabhadra wrote:
Simon E. wrote:So Caucasians also can have the ' eastern mind ' ? :popcorn:


Of course, Yes. Its just they are never taught about it.

And you are just the chap to put that right ?
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:40 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Why should I care what scholars and scientists have to say about Buddhism? Do they have the monopoly on truth?


I know that religion trumps logic, reason, evidence and just about everything and honestly you really don't have to care about what scholars and scientists have to say about it if you just keep your devotion to Buddha but I am quite pleased to see that even science and scholarly evidence is pointing to the same truth. Vajrayana surely trumps all logic, reason and evidence but the important thing is even science is giving us additional valid reasons to believe that Vajrayana Buddhism is the true Buddhism.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:45 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Samanthabhadra wrote:
Simon E. wrote:So Caucasians also can have the ' eastern mind ' ? :popcorn:


Of course, Yes. Its just they are never taught about it.

And you are just the chap to put that right ?


Yes, I think this should be taught in schools.

"Some scientists (like Wigner) believe that quantum mechanics makes certain dualist ideas about the mind/body problem acceptable again within mainstream science."

Mind and Brain are two different things.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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