Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

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Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:37 am

Distorted Visions of Buddhism: Agnostic and Atheist - Dr. Alan Wallace

Anyone who has seriously investigated Buddhism knows that Buddhism has 100 peaceful and wrathful deities.

Image
Hundred peaceful and wrathful deities.

Guhyagarbha Tantra

"Restricted text: Anyone interested in purchasing or reading this text must have received the empowerment of Vajrasattva's Magical Manifestation Matrix for the peaceful and wrathful deities from either the kama or the terma tradition and must have received the reading transmission."

We don't view Buddha as just a historical figure, we view him as someone who exists in an eternal platonic realm and our goal should be to attain this Buddha nature. Atheistic Buddhists have no future because the tantric texts of Buddhism slams the views of atheistic and secular Buddhists explicitly.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Wayfarer » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:43 am

Of course it should be tolerated. What are we supposed to do? Picket buildings? Hold public meetings and denounce the heretics? We live in a secular, pluralistic society, in which there are no privileges for 'doctrinal purity'. It should certainly be rigorously criticized and shown to be deficient in some really basic ways. But it has to be tolerated, otherwise you're creating a rod for your own back.

:anjali:
Learn to do good, refrain from evil, purify the mind ~ this is the teaching of the Buddhas
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby randomseb » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:48 am

Do you think Buddha had anything to say about any tantric deities? That came from pre-buddhist Tibet, so probably not! These are used to represent aspects of one's own mind, especially in the post-life Bardo visions, in the Book of the Dead, see?

Someone somewhere has misunderstood what buddhism was, I would guess :shrug:

What does this have to do with toleration? Nothing at all. If someone wants to believe in some form of buddhism you don't agree with, what business is that of yours? Having a problem with it is a neurosis of your own, that you will need to work through and abandon if you are to make any progress in any buddhist path. Based on the Tibetan buddhism.

:woohoo:
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Indrajala » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:01 am

You don't have to accept it, but they have the right to voice their opinion, write books, hold meetings and discuss their ideas.

Freedom of speech is absolutely critical to maintaining a healthy social environment.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Konchog1 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:18 am

Did the Lord Buddha tolerate the Brahmins? Did Padmasambhava tolerate Bon? Did the Buddhist minority tolerate Langdharma?

We must have compassion for those that would be led astray and confront and oppose secular, humanist, or whatever Buddhism wherever it is found. We must furthermore ignore the ostriches in our own ranks and their cries of 'pure vision' and 'modern society'. As Dzongsar Rinpoche says, we should look at the state of Hatha Yoga in the West and understand the lesson for us there and its warning.

"There is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world. Just as there is no disappearance of gold as long as a counterfeit of gold has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of gold when a counterfeit of gold has arisen in the world, in the same way there is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world.

-http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn16/sn16.013.than.html


The stunner who defeated all heretics
With Dharma teachings
And conquered all crowds:
He will bring happiness and benefit to you!

-The Noble Sutra on Entering the Great City of Vaishali
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:22 am

jeeprs wrote:Of course it should be tolerated. What are we supposed to do? Picket buildings? Hold public meetings and denounce the heretics? We live in a secular, pluralistic society, in which there are no privileges for 'doctrinal purity'. It should certainly be rigorously criticized and shown to be deficient in some really basic ways. But it has to be tolerated, otherwise you're creating a rod for your own back.

:anjali:


If they had tried to understand the eastern mind and how they view the world without distorting the doctrines of Buddhism and tried to learn things from us then it wouldn't have been a problem but they are annoying and no one laughs at them more than we do when they use our religion and preach to us as to what constitutes Buddhism.

The problem arises when they no longer respect traditional Buddhism and dogmatically assert and spread a false view of Buddhism and this shouldn't be tolerated.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:31 am

randomseb wrote:Do you think Buddha had anything to say about any tantric deities? That came from pre-buddhist Tibet, so probably not! These are used to represent aspects of one's own mind, especially in the post-life Bardo visions, in the Book of the Dead, see?


As I have said we don't see Buddha just as an historical figure. For us Buddha exists in an eternal realm and we have people who converse with him and Padmasambhava, also known as second Buddha introduced tantric Buddhism to Tibet and other far eastern regions and he obtained that knowledge from Adi Buddha himself.

Someone somewhere has misunderstood what buddhism was, I would guess :shrug:


Yes, the secular Buddhists.

What does this have to do with toleration? Nothing at all. If someone wants to believe in some form of buddhism you don't agree with, what business is that of yours? Having a problem with it is a neurosis of your own, that you will need to work through and abandon if you are to make any progress in any buddhist path. Based on the Tibetan buddhism.

:woohoo:


Anyone who has self-respect and anyone who knows what the truth of their own religion is will not tolerate a false view of their religion being spread everywhere. I have self-respect and I am quite convinced of my position on this.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Konchog1 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:36 am

Samanthabhadra wrote:Anyone who has self-respect and anyone who knows what the truth of their own religion is will not tolerate a false view of their religion being spread everywhere. I have self-respect and I am quite convinced of my position on this.
That's exactly it. Humans defend things they care about. If people are unwilling to defend Buddhism, they don't care about Buddhism that much.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Indrajala » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:39 am

Samanthabhadra wrote:
If they had tried to understand the eastern mind ...


That's rather essentialist and basically eradicates your argument.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby randomseb » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:40 am

Therefore you have the age old sickness of "my view is the right view, and all other views are flawed", I see. There is a deep danger in this kind of fundamentalist clinging to views. Remember the Four Noble Truths!

Perhaps you should read Padmasambhava's Tibetan book of the Great Liberation to get an idea of what his Buddhism was actually about and why this is not so good for you :thumbsup:
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:01 am

randomseb wrote:"my view is the right view, and all other views are flawed",


Of course and when all the evidence is on my side why the hell should I consider myself as sick and what should I be afraid of.

"Samantabhadra, the primordial Buddha whose nature is identical with the tathagatagarbha within each sentient being, is the ultimate ground of samsara and nirvana; and the entire universe consists of nothing other than displays of this infinite, radiant, empty awareness. Thus, in light of the theoretical progression from the bhavanga to the tathagatagarbha to the primordial wisdom of the absolute space of reality, Buddhism is not so simply non-theistic as it may appear at first glance."

—Dr. B. Alan Wallace, Buddhist Scholar

Perhaps you should read Padmasambhava's Tibetan book of the Great Liberation to get an idea of what his Buddhism was actually about and why this is not so good for you :thumbsup:


Is Buddhism Really Non-theistic?

Padmasambhava explicitly slams atheistic and secular Buddhists who don't accept a Buddhist cosmogony in their world view and falsely claim themselves as Buddhists. In my honest opinion they are not Buddhists. The evidence is on my side.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Fu Ri Shin » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:14 am

I'd like to point out that while this topic's title is a question about tolerance, there is neither a single question nor a mention of tolerance in the original post.

Seems like this is an attempt at pushing a view rather than opening a discussion.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:20 am

Greetings Samanthabhadra,

Samanthabhadra wrote:We don't view Buddha as just a historical figure, we view him as someone who exists in an eternal platonic realm and our goal should be to attain this Buddha nature. Atheistic Buddhists have no future because the tantric texts of Buddhism slams the views of atheistic and secular Buddhists explicitly.
randomseb wrote:Do you think Buddha had anything to say about any tantric deities? That came from pre-buddhist Tibet, so probably not! These are used to represent aspects of one's own mind, especially in the post-life Bardo visions, in the Book of the Dead, see?


As I have said we don't see Buddha just as an historical figure. For us Buddha exists in an eternal realm and we have people who converse with him and Padmasambhava, also known as second Buddha introduced tantric Buddhism to Tibet and other far eastern regions and he obtained that knowledge from Adi Buddha himself.

It's ironic that you're not prepared to tolerate subsequent developments in Buddhism, yet you're perfectly happy to accept previous developments... don't you find your stance somewhat arbitrary?

Maitri,
Retro. :)
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Konchog1 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:27 am

retrofuturist wrote:It's ironic that you're not prepared to tolerate subsequent developments in Buddhism, yet you're perfectly happy to accept previous developments... don't you find your stance somewhat arbitrary
But Secular Buddhism is not Buddhism. That's the problem.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:29 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Samanthabhadra,

It's ironic that you're not prepared to tolerate subsequent developments in Buddhism, yet you're perfectly happy to accept previous developments... don't you find your stance somewhat arbitrary?

Maitri,
Retro. :)


Rebirth is not important, the eternal Buddha realm is not important and Buddha was an agnostic, these are some of the new age subsequent developments and you expect me to accept this view without ridiculing and criticizing it?
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:34 am

Fu Ri Shin wrote:I'd like to point out that while this topic's title is a question about tolerance, there is neither a single question nor a mention of tolerance in the original post.

Seems like this is an attempt at pushing a view rather than opening a discussion.


The first link in my OP sums up the topic of this thread quite beautifully and it needed no further explanation.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Konchog1 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:34 am

Samanthabhadra wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Samanthabhadra,

It's ironic that you're not prepared to tolerate subsequent developments in Buddhism, yet you're perfectly happy to accept previous developments... don't you find your stance somewhat arbitrary?

Maitri,
Retro. :)


Rebirth is not important, the eternal Buddha realm is not important and Buddha was an agnostic, these are some of the new age subsequent developments and you expect me to accept this view without ridiculing and criticizing it?
Yes.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:30 am

Using Buddhism as a source of identification in order to further reify dualistic notions (I am right, you are wrong, I am a real Buddhist, you are a fake Buddhist, etc...)
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One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Simon E. » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:04 am

Samanthabhadra wrote:
jeeprs wrote:Of course it should be tolerated. What are we supposed to do? Picket buildings? Hold public meetings and denounce the heretics? We live in a secular, pluralistic society, in which there are no privileges for 'doctrinal purity'. It should certainly be rigorously criticized and shown to be deficient in some really basic ways. But it has to be tolerated, otherwise you're creating a rod for your own back.

:anjali:


If they had tried to understand the eastern mind and how they view the world without distorting the doctrines of Buddhism and tried to learn things from us then it wouldn't have been a problem but they are annoying and no one laughs at them more than we do when they use our religion and preach to us as to what constitutes Buddhism.

The problem arises when they no longer respect traditional Buddhism and dogmatically assert and spread a false view of Buddhism and this shouldn't be tolerated.

There is an eastern mind ?
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Re: Should secular Buddhism be tolerated?

Postby Samanthabhadra » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:30 am

Simon E. wrote:There is an eastern mind ?


Yes, Asian thought is not positivistic, for us the mind and brain are two different things and our epistemology is different.
My father is the intrinsic awareness, Samantabhadra (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་པོ). My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality, Samantabhadri (Sanskrit; Tib. ཀུན་ཏུ་བཟང་མོ). I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness. My name is the Glorious Lotus-Born. I am from the unborn sphere of all phenomena. I act in the way of the Buddhas of the three times.

- PadmaSambhava.
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