Trials of Modern Life

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Trials of Modern Life

Postby Will » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:17 pm

For weeks now a slutty couple and their sexual antics have been frontpage. Eventually she murdered him; what a story - the trial concerned one murdered adult.

But in Philadelphia an abortion 'doctor' has murdered babies for 40 years - silence.

Finally some media coverage is happening. Here is The Atlantic article:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... ry/274944/
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:02 pm

We are not really talking about medical abortions in this instance. The indicted individual acted illegally and well outdsiode the boundaries of the medical profession. We are clearly talking about criminal activity in this case.

As for this:
...a slutty couple...
Sexually promiscuous is the correct term. It pays not to use such emotional charged, derogatory, judgemental and discriminative language.

OM MANI PADME HUNG, for all involved, in both these tragic situations.
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"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Will » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:26 pm

OK Greg - how much will you pay me not to use 'slutty' again?

Yes, the murdered babies need mantras now - of course.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:51 pm

And the murderers. And the women who went to the "doctor" for help.

Both the victims and the perpetrators are suffering.

As for this:
OK Greg - how much will you pay me not to use 'slutty' again?
Why should I pay you to use right speech? It was just a word of advice so that you avoid causing suffering. Take it or leave it.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Will » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:56 pm

From the Grand Jury report:

This case is about a doctor who killed babies and endangered women. What we
mean is that he regularly and illegally delivered live, viable, babies in the third trimester
of pregnancy – and then murdered these newborns by severing their spinal cords with
scissors. The medical practice by which he carried out this business was a filthy fraud in
which he overdosed his patients with dangerous drugs, spread venereal disease among
them with infected instruments, perforated their wombs and bowels – and, on at least two
occasions, caused their deaths. Over the years, many people came to know that
something was going on here. But no one put a stop to it.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Punya » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:09 am

Hi Will. I had a conversation with one of my teachers a while back about something similar. The way he explained it was that we can have compassion for both the perpetrator and the victim/s without, in any way, condoning the actions of the perpetrator. When I hear about these stories I wonder what dreadful circumstances would drive someone to such actions. OM MANI PADME HUNG.
Unless the inner forces of negative emotions are conquered
Strife with outer enemies will never end.
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Wayfarer » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:12 am

'Guarding the mind' also means being careful as to where you direct your attention. There are any number of heinous crimes being committed in the world at any moment, paying attention to those matters so as to engage in a vicarious sense of righteous umbrage is not a wholesome practice.
Learn to do good, refrain from evil, purify the mind ~ this is the teaching of the Buddhas
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby greentara » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:36 am

jeeprs, Of course you are right and we have to have a measured response but can we ignore all that is unfair parading before us. The rich and powerful seem to get away with impunity eg the bankers in Wall St, the mining magnates, large tracts of forest being chopped down as we sit around. These power mongers seem to have teflon lives.
Just read a cadet from the 'armed services' stole a kiss from a fellow cadet, now he is on trial with Judge and jury, with his whole life in the balance.... has political correctness completely taken over? At the same time the internet is completely awash with porn...it's so unbalanced
Of course I can resist reading the paper on line, block my ears at news time, ignore all controversial discussions.
Yes we can meditate but we still come back to everyday mind.
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:02 am

greentara wrote:jeeprs, Of course you are right and we have to have a measured response but can we ignore all that is unfair parading before us. The rich and powerful seem to get away with impunity eg the bankers in Wall St, the mining magnates, large tracts of forest being chopped down as we sit around. These power mongers seem to have teflon lives.
Just read a cadet from the 'armed services' stole a kiss from a fellow cadet, now he is on trial with Judge and jury, with his whole life in the balance.... has political correctness completely taken over? At the same time the internet is completely awash with porn...it's so unbalanced
Of course I can resist reading the paper on line, block my ears at news time, ignore all controversial discussions.
Yes we can meditate but we still come back to everyday mind.
If our meditation is not affecting a change in our "everday mind" then wh should we bother meditating?

What the "doctor" did was monstrous and their actions should be condemned so that others also understand that it is not just not allowable, but at the same time imagine how much somebody must be suffering (and the amount of delusion and ignorance invloved) in order to be able to carry out such activities. Imagine also how much they will be suffering in the future as a consequence of these actions.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Will » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:27 pm

It is easy to misunderstand and be self-righteous or judgmental, especially when only written words are the points of contact. So let me make crystal (since it is not clear enough, evidently) the purpose of my OP.

It simply had to do with the imbalance of media coverage of 'newsworthy' events - that is all. Not a new notion at all. In the arena of abortion related events, the pro-abort side is far more often & sympathetically covered. That was the only purpose of the OP.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby pueraeternus » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:48 pm

Will wrote:It is easy to misunderstand and be self-righteous or judgmental, especially when only written words are the points of contact. So let me make crystal (since it is not clear enough, evidently) the purpose of my OP.

It simply had to do with the imbalance of media coverage of 'newsworthy' events - that is all. Not a new notion at all. In the arena of abortion related events, the pro-abort side is far more often & sympathetically covered. That was the only purpose of the OP.


I have always wondered at the Buddhist stance on abortion vis-a-vis the Christian stance. Basically our views are the same, in that a live fetus is essentially a human being, since consciousness descents upon conception. I guess the only difference might be that for most Buddhist (as far as I can tell) the decision to abort is left to the mother, whereas the mainstream view held by most churches (again as far as I can tell - I might be wrong?) is that even the mothers have no right to abort since only God can take away life.

How about the doctors' role in this? In a Buddhist context, won't the abortion procedure by a doctor (even within the legal and medically accepted limits) be akin to taking life?

This is a tough subject and I am still mulling about this, but perhaps we can invite discussion about this. From female Dharma practitioners?
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Punya » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:40 pm

Will wrote:It is easy to misunderstand and be self-righteous or judgmental, especially when only written words are the points of contact. So let me make crystal (since it is not clear enough, evidently) the purpose of my OP.

It simply had to do with the imbalance of media coverage of 'newsworthy' events - that is all. Not a new notion at all. In the arena of abortion related events, the pro-abort side is far more often & sympathetically covered. That was the only purpose of the OP.


Whether you were talking about the original actions or the media's coverage of them they are still just aspects of samsara. Samsara can't be fixed.
Unless the inner forces of negative emotions are conquered
Strife with outer enemies will never end.
~Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby greentara » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:56 pm

Punya, Yes samsara can't be fixed. As one large problem is seemingly resolved many other problems are looming. Thats on the macro level as well as the micro level.
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Will » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:47 am

Now that the trial is going on a little more media coverage may occur. Here is a columnist chastising her fellow 'journalists' for their indifference:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... n/2072577/
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Mercy for Gosnell

Postby Will » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:41 pm

A prominent Catholic intellectual argues for no death penalty for Gosnell:

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstt ... t-gosnell/
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:16 pm

Imagine there are people out there that are pro-life and pro-death penalty. Try and figure out that combination!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Will » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:40 am

Almost as odd as anti-death penalty folk who are also pro-abortion.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Will » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:40 am

Political beliefs do drive many people in the media, as this leftish chap admits:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/eri ... ver-trial/
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:17 am

Will wrote:Almost as odd as anti-death penalty folk who are also pro-abortion.
Pro-choice not pro-abortion. You will be hard pressed to find somebody that actively supports abortion. Pro-choicers (normally) believe that the option for abortion should exist for women that have no other choice but to abort. You will also be hard pressed to find a woman that considers abortion a primary option.

Anyway, the issue with "Dr" Kermit is not a pro-choice issue. Killing babies capable of independent (though supported) existence does not fall within the bounds of abortion, it falls clearly into the realm of infanticide. Abortion only applies when the foetus is not yet capable of independent existence, not even when supported. Severing the spinal column of living, breathing infants does not fall into this category. I do not believe you will find any pro-choicers (except for provocateurs) arguing that what "Dr" Kermit did is acceptable.
Political beliefs do drive many people in the media, as this leftish chap admits...
Yup, definitely. Some people even dress up their political beliefs (left or right) as religious beliefs in order to gain the moral high ground. Wouldn't you agree?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Trials of Modern Life

Postby Will » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:53 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Will wrote:Almost as odd as anti-death penalty folk who are also pro-abortion.
Pro-choice not pro-abortion. You will be hard pressed to find somebody that actively supports abortion. Pro-choicers (normally) believe that the option for abortion should exist for women that have no other choice but to abort. You will also be hard pressed to find a woman that considers abortion a primary option.

Anyway, the issue with "Dr" Kermit is not a pro-choice issue. Killing babies capable of independent (though supported) existence does not fall within the bounds of abortion, it falls clearly into the realm of infanticide. Abortion only applies when the foetus is not yet capable of independent existence, not even when supported. Severing the spinal column of living, breathing infants does not fall into this category. I do not believe you will find any pro-choicers (except for provocateurs) arguing that what "Dr" Kermit did is acceptable.
Political beliefs do drive many people in the media, as this leftish chap admits...
Yup, definitely. Some people even dress up their political beliefs (left or right) as religious beliefs in order to gain the moral high ground. Wouldn't you agree?


http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/p ... edical.pdf

Though it is ghastly reading, the Grand Jury report posted above makes clear that the cases of 'infanticide' were deliberately induced by Gosnell. He gave the women a drug that forced contractions and when the baby came out, the spine was snipped at the base of the brain. So however the dictionary supports the distinction, in this case, an abortionist at an abortion mill is the only cause for the infanticide. Without the motive to abort and the action to implement the abortion, there would be no murdered infant.

As for 'dressing up' political beliefs with a religious garb -- I supposed it is possible, but not very common. If one is basically a secular, political person, then the 'moral high ground' would be a matter of indifference, even hostility, to a political thinker. Not to mention that these days religion & morality are becoming less & less popular, so why wrap a pro-life secular motive with a position that is religious?

Also, just what would be the secular, non-religious motive for being pro-life?
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