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Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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manas
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby manas » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:13 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby chownah » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:45 am

It seems that a major point of concern here has been whether being mindful of the present moment is sati....or not. My question is if one is truly in the present moment that what else could they be aware of if not body, feelings, mind, and mind-objects? In the exact present moment what else could there be?
chownah

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:45 am


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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:12 am


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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby chownah » Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:37 am

If we do not observe phenomena in the present moment then in which moment do we observe them?

Is a remembrance just a thought that arises that we ascribe to being something that happened in the past?...but isn't the rememberance actually happening in the present moment.....isn't it just a present thought about our views of something we ascribe to the past?
It seems unlikely that a remembrance is thinking IN the past....it is just thinking ABOUT the past but the thinking is happening in the present moment...I guess....I'd like to be notified if I've made some major blunder in this view....
Also, I'm still wondering about my question, If one is truly in the present moment then what else could they be aware of if not body, feelings, mind, and mind-objects? In the exact present moment what else could there be?

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Sekha » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:06 am

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Sekha » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:19 am

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby ground » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:39 am


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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:53 am


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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:27 pm

A comment I made in my earlier post got lost in the editing.

With reference to the context of sati in Ānāpānasati/Satipaṭṭhāna work, I think Analayo covered that accurately, although I don’t have the time at present to go over the relevant section to confirm why.

Although I already mentioned this , in my opinion, sati is best understood in its context and when that context is Ānapānasati/Satipaṭṭhāna contemplative work, it is for the practitioner to stay on task with the object of contemplation, in ānāpāna to develop calm with breathing, and then to the examination of states at feeling and mind.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Sekha » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:14 pm

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby chownah » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:21 pm


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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:30 pm


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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby Nyana » Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:36 pm


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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby dhamma follower » Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:53 pm

What a fascinating discussion!

IMHO, there are two concepts that seem to easily confuse our understanding of sati:

1. Remembrance: we often equate remembrance to thinking. But it is not. Actually, remembrance is just a mental factor which arises and performs the function of remember, together with a citta knowing an object at that every moment. Sati is also a mental factor, if we consider that way, then it is easier to make the connection between the two.

To understand the remembering aspect of sati, just think about the moment between a state of forgetfulness to a moment of awareness. What the mind knows at that very moment? It knows it has been forgetful, and also what has been forgotten - that is remembrance -sati at work.

2. Present moment: What is the present moment? Time is created by the mind.

For practitioners, we feel that we are in the present moment when there is no thinking of past or future, or where we are aware of what is occuring in our body and mind, right?
But are we actually aware of every dhamma that arises and passes away? There are billions of them in each second. Are we sure we are aware of the moment of arising to the moment of passing away of each dhamma in its minute existence?

With practice, we know that the more we are "in the present moment", the more we feel like catching a fish in the water with only one hand, as phenomena arise and pass away extremely fast.

That means "being in the present moment"- so to speak- doesn't negate the remembering aspect of sati, because when sati remembers two or three or hundreds previous dhammas, we are still perfectly in the "present moment".

I believe that it is where sampajana becomes stronger that it see better the working of sati in details.

The first vipassana nana consists of understanding nama and rupa separately, as dhammas, no person , that means sampajana is strong enough to see sati remembering the "dhammas" that have arised.

My understanding is that, from the vipassana stages, sati goes further than remember learnt right view, to directly remember "dhammas", establishing thus a superior kind of right view.

Regards,

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:01 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Postby dhamma follower » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:20 am


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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

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