Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:49 pm

Devotion and the blessings of the guru. Transmission happens by a realized master and a student able to see the master as Buddha - awaken nature. Without genuine devotion is it not possible, by right thoughts about is it not possible.

Therefore it is very very important to find a master we feel connection to.

Two cents. :namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby CrawfordHollow » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:44 pm

I have heard that Garchen Rinpoche has said that essentially during a lung nothing actually happens. The true transmission occurs when the teacher explains the practice to the student and the student has devotion and bodhichitta. How this relates to ChNN giving lungs over webcast is another story.

I personally believe, and others I am sure will disagree with me, that the transmission is totally possible during a replay. It reallly depends on the faith and devotion of the student. Now, ChNN has said otherwise, and of course we must respect this. I find it hard to believe that the reason is as clear-cut as saying that transmission needs to happen "live." Maybe ChNN just wants to set up some conformity within his sangha. I don't know. Really can't say. I just don't think that we can even start to define what this transmission even is, let alone how it works. The important thing is that it does work.

Troy
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Jikan » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:10 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:I have heard that Garchen Rinpoche has said that essentially during a lung nothing actually happens. The true transmission occurs when the teacher explains the practice to the student and the student has devotion and bodhichitta. How this relates to ChNN giving lungs over webcast is another story.

I personally believe, and others I am sure will disagree with me, that the transmission is totally possible during a replay. It reallly depends on the faith and devotion of the student. Now, ChNN has said otherwise, and of course we must respect this. I find it hard to believe that the reason is as clear-cut as saying that transmission needs to happen "live." Maybe ChNN just wants to set up some conformity within his sangha. I don't know. Really can't say. I just don't think that we can even start to define what this transmission even is, let alone how it works. The important thing is that it does work.

Troy


It may be that this is another way in which ChNN is a more conservative lama than he might be reputed to be ("conservative" in the sense of playing it safe, if you will).

By contrast, years ago I visited a Kagyu center in the US where I was instructed as follows: when one watches a video recording of a great lama, such as HH Karmapa, one must feel that the lama is there with you right then and there, instructing you in real time, and thereby transmission is possible. We then watched a recording of HH Karmapa 17 giving a lung for a Chenrezig sadhana, and after, we were told that we had received the transmission and a meaningful connection was made with HH Karmapa. I won't lie, it felt real to me. This is a much looser policy than the one in effect in the Dzogchen Community.

Bigger picture:

I think the question of whether ChNN is a traditionalist or an anti-traditionalist, which has come up in this thread again and again (with some going so far as to suggest he has thrown his samaya under the bus), is worth reviewing in this context. To give an example of what I mean: I've heard students in other traditions (not teachers but students, and in person, not here at DW) criticize ChNN fiercely for not demanding his students perform ngondro before making direct introduction available to them. Well, if you listen carefully, you'll hear that ChNN encourages students to practice ngondro as appropriate, as it is useful to them; his Longsal cycle includes a ngondro. (I've practiced it.) He also points out that the tradition of ngondro-before-DI is much more recent than the older tradition of giving qualified students direct introduction directly (the three letters of Garab Dorje). And who is qualified? If you are interested enough to show up with proper intention, you have demonstrated your qualification. In teaching this way, I'd argue that ChNN may be the opposite of what his detractors make him out to be: an upholder of an older tradition than the "traditionalists" they may imagine themselves to be. To my poor mind, he seems less an anti-traditionalist than a paleo-traditionalist. This is one of the reasons that I have, to this day, great confidence in his teachings.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby CrawfordHollow » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:27 pm

Word. :good:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:53 pm

Jikan wrote:By contrast, years ago I visited a Kagyu center in the US where I was instructed as follows: when one watches a video recording of a great lama, such as HH Karmapa, one must feel that the lama is there with you right then and there, instructing you in real time, and thereby transmission is possible.
You won't see anything like this happening in the mandala I am in, noooooooooo way!!! By the book every time! Asphyxiatingly so (as far a I am concerned), many times.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
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One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby wisdom » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:30 am

If we think we can receive transmission from videos then it follows we can also do it from books as well. The risk is that taking this attitude towards all the teachings can easily devolve into simply thinking you are receiving all kinds of transmissions when instead you are just following your own ego and desires and creating delusions. The second risk of this is that you may not properly understand the teaching and just project your own views upon it, which is why receiving an explanation from a qualified person is important. Lastly, even if it is possible for you, if beginners hear about it and think its possible for them they may decide they never need any Guru at all, and that would be tragic for 99.99% of practitioners.

If you are in a place where you are not actually limited by these things, then you are also in a place that you understand skillful means and so can see the reason for the rules and regulations even if you have transcended them. Nevertheless, even if we have confidence and experience with the natural state we can never be too careful. So its been said that we should hold the highest possible view, but our attention to action should be as fine as flour. Such an attitude prevents seeds of ego and pride from entering our practice and obscuring our Buddha nature.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby practitioner » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:55 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
Jikan wrote:By contrast, years ago I visited a Kagyu center in the US where I was instructed as follows: when one watches a video recording of a great lama, such as HH Karmapa, one must feel that the lama is there with you right then and there, instructing you in real time, and thereby transmission is possible.
You won't see anything like this happening in the mandala I am in, noooooooooo way!!! By the book every time! Asphyxiatingly so (as far a I am concerned), many times.


I'm with you on that one, never heard of that in any Kagyu center I've been in. Teachings and practice instruction may be done by phone or in videos/recordings. But it's not a lung or wang if you aren't in the room.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:25 am

wisdom wrote:If we think we can receive transmission from videos then it follows we can also do it from books as well. The risk is that taking this attitude towards all the teachings can easily devolve into simply thinking you are receiving all kinds of transmissions when instead you are just following your own ego and desires and creating delusions. The second risk of this is that you may not properly understand the teaching and just project your own views upon it, which is why receiving an explanation from a qualified person is important. Lastly, even if it is possible for you, if beginners hear about it and think its possible for them they may decide they never need any Guru at all, and that would be tragic for 99.99% of practitioners.

If you are in a place where you are not actually limited by these things, then you are also in a place that you understand skillful means and so can see the reason for the rules and regulations even if you have transcended them. Nevertheless, even if we have confidence and experience with the natural state we can never be too careful. So its been said that we should hold the highest possible view, but our attention to action should be as fine as flour. Such an attitude prevents seeds of ego and pride from entering our practice and obscuring our Buddha nature.

:good:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherlock » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:47 am

Jikan wrote:I think the question of whether ChNN is a traditionalist or an anti-traditionalist, which has come up in this thread again and again (with some going so far as to suggest he has thrown his samaya under the bus), is worth reviewing in this context. To give an example of what I mean: I've heard students in other traditions (not teachers but students, and in person, not here at DW) criticize ChNN fiercely for not demanding his students perform ngondro before making direct introduction available to them. Well, if you listen carefully, you'll hear that ChNN encourages students to practice ngondro as appropriate, as it is useful to them; his Longsal cycle includes a ngondro. (I've practiced it.) He also points out that the tradition of ngondro-before-DI is much more recent than the older tradition of giving qualified students direct introduction directly (the three letters of Garab Dorje). And who is qualified? If you are interested enough to show up with proper intention, you have demonstrated your qualification. In teaching this way, I'd argue that ChNN may be the opposite of what his detractors make him out to be: an upholder of an older tradition than the "traditionalists" they may imagine themselves to be. To my poor mind, he seems less an anti-traditionalist than a paleo-traditionalist. This is one of the reasons that I have, to this day, great confidence in his teachings.


:twothumbsup:
Everything he teaches has scriptural justification even if it's not as popular among other lamas.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:03 am

practitioner wrote: But it's not a lung or wang if you aren't in the room.


There are no limitations in connection. Spacelike nature has no room, cannot be locked up in room. But for sure connection must be. For recognition of Awaken nature (not by opinions, arguments-thoughts) some insight of emptiness, not only intellectually, but rather insight- devotion in Awaken nature or Guru Yoga is the way, to not see 'a teacher' like habits are used to see.
Ps Mila who was guided by Marpa in his cave, 'far away', this is not a story but an example. Space, in which the bodies and all phenomena appear has no limitations. :alien:

Discursive mind creates its' limitations.

:namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:23 pm

:good: :good: :good: :group:

All great posts.

Nice to see this thread come alive, facing some of the issues of the DC.

Everyone describes the elephant from their point of view, like the blind wise men in the story, depending on what parts they touched.

I think that transmission depends on faith and devotion: the a-tuning of the student to the Teacher.

Please note the point about Ven. Jigme Lingpa's transmission / permissions from the omniscient Ven. Longchenpa.

So if with tears in the eyes, and your arm hairs standing straight up (2 signs of heart devotion) if you ask ChNNR for transmission / permission at ANY time - perhaps you will get it.

This has nothing to do with what his physical body, in this incarnation, is doing at the time. This is my piece of the elephant.

I have also been standing 1 meter from Rinpoche when someone asked him, "Can you get lung transmission from a recording?"

Rinpoche paused a moment and then said, "Yes, it is all sound," and then rolled his eyes up. This occurred at Tseygyalgar, on the upper land, many years ago. There were several witnesses.

Maybe he has since changed his mind.

Perhaps there are several personalities, in play, who teach different things at different times, just to keep things interesting. :smile: :woohoo: :smile:

Yes, I am back in the States, having survived 2 months in Margarita. You don't want to know, but I may address the issues in a separate thread.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:00 pm

I don't know if anyone has mentioned already on this thread, but

SSI ITALY JUST WENT TO SUGGESTED DONATION FOR ALL BOOKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... t_list&c=4

HIP HIP HOORAY!!!!!!!!!

Go for it now, before this goes away. Pay what you can afford and get the collection.

DO the practices and get the benefit.

Hooray for CHNNR and the hard working folks at SSI!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who says no one reads DW???

:heart: :heart: :heart:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:28 pm

Spoke too soon. (In the voice of WC Fields.)

Called up Carla at SSI.

They meant to say "Suggested minimum contribution."

Oh Well. It was a nice thought while it lasted.

Maybe someday.

Back to the zafu, my little chik-a-dee.

"Better here than Philadelphia" (Written on WC's tomb stone.) :smile:

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pero » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:47 pm

oldbob wrote:Spoke too soon. (In the voice of WC Fields.)

Called up Carla at SSI.

They meant to say "Suggested minimum contribution."

Sorry but LOL!

I have also been standing 1 meter from Rinpoche when someone asked him, "Can you get lung transmission from a recording?"

Rinpoche paused a moment and then said, "Yes, it is all sound," and then rolled his eyes up. This occurred at Tseygyalgar, on the upper land, many years ago. There were several witnesses.

This gave me pause and now I think that when I said that he says you can't get it from a recording he might have been talking about direct introduction only.

However...
Please note the point about Ven. Jigme Lingpa's transmission / permissions from the omniscient Ven. Longchenpa.

I find this argument a little silly and I have seen it used quite a bit. If you are like Jigmed Lingpa good for you, but I am not and I'm pretty sure most others aren't either.

Jikan wrote:Well, if you listen carefully, you'll hear that ChNN encourages students to practice ngondro as appropriate, as it is useful to them; his Longsal cycle includes a ngondro. (I've practiced it.)

Sure but that one is not the regular ngondro (although it includes it).
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby T. Chokyi » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:17 pm

Pero wrote:
oldbob wrote:Spoke too soon. (In the voice of WC Fields.)

This gave me pause and now I think that when I said that he says you can't get it from a recording he might have been talking about direct introduction only.



How many times have we heard Rinpoche say that he is "giving the lung again" because someone wrote him an email and requested the lung because they missed it when he gave it the first time. Time after time, so many webcasts he has done this. He didn't say "I gave the lung yesterday, and for those that missed, get it from the replay".

:shrug:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:21 pm

oldbob wrote:Spoke too soon. (In the voice of WC Fields.)

Called up Carla at SSI.

They meant to say "Suggested minimum contribution."

What is the difference?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
If we have to have a soul, it might as well be vidya, it is after all, permanent, unconditioned, a knower, stainless, and free from the three realms. But If we don't have to have one, vidya still has these characteristics. It is our essenceless essence. - a certain Gemini
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:49 pm

:namaste:

SSI mentioned that Longsal 9 is in stock, and available on the SSI site. If you are on their list for the attendees of the Yangtig Teaching in Tenerife, then you register with SSI using a special password code, that they give you and the Longsal 9 then appears in the list of books for sale. Adriano had mentioned to me that the Longsal 9 was available when I first went to Margarita, 2 months ago. It took them two months to get the book added to the site. I guess they are very busy.

26 Euros, with shipping, to the States. There will be no stocking of the Longsal 9, in the US, because the list of approved recipiants is maintained at SSI Italy.

I can afford it. Perhaps many people cannot afford the constant barrage of expensive, very interesting and tempting, new books / cds / dvds. When I asked about the new way of listing all prices as a "suggested donation", I was told that this was necessary because their SSI accountant told them that, because they are registered as a non-profit organization, they are not allowed to sell things at a fixed price.

Perhaps stating that books are available for a suggested donation is a cruel misrepresentation to a lot of poor people who may be misled to thinking that can now offer what they can afford. This is the common meaning of "suggested donation" in English.

What is wrong with this picture?

:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:

There must be a better way!

ob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:03 am

T. Chokyi wrote:
Pero wrote:
oldbob wrote:Spoke too soon. (In the voice of WC Fields.)

This gave me pause and now I think that when I said that he says you can't get it from a recording he might have been talking about direct introduction only.



How many times have we heard Rinpoche say that he is "giving the lung again" because someone wrote him an email and requested the lung because they missed it when he gave it the first time. Time after time, so many webcasts he has done this. He didn't say "I gave the lung yesterday, and for those that missed, get it from the replay".

:shrug:


:namaste:

Who is going to give the lungs when Rinpoche is not able to?

Perhaps Rinpoche is just being kind to those people who missed the "live" transmission, and want to feel included, or perhaps it is a recognition (for those who don't have the technical capacity to convert to MP3), that trying to get any useful information from the replays is a difficult experience, at best, with your having to go back to the beginning, and start over, if there is any drop out of the data stream, or if you want to study (listen to) something again. Why can't the replays be released in MP3 format?

There has got to be a better way.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:45 am

oldbob wrote:Perhaps Rinpoche is just being kind to those people who missed the "live" transmission, and want to feel included, or perhaps it is a recognition (for those who don't have the technical capacity to convert to MP3), that trying to get any useful information from the replays is a difficult experience, at best, with your having to go back to the beginning, and start over, if there is any drop out of the data stream, or if you want to study (listen to) something again. Why can't the replays be released in MP3 format?


Perhaps this, perhaps that....
The fact is that ChNN Rinpoche says that only listening to live webcasts is considered to be transmission from him.
Take it or leave it....
As for the replays, they are in mp3 format! However what you are downloading is not the mp3 file itself, but a m3u file which serves for retrieving the real mp3 audio file from the playlist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3U
This is done obviously for copyright reasons. Take it or leave it, too.... :consoling:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby oldbob » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:34 am

Dronma wrote:
oldbob wrote:Perhaps Rinpoche is just being kind to those people who missed the "live" transmission, and want to feel included, or perhaps it is a recognition (for those who don't have the technical capacity to convert to MP3), that trying to get any useful information from the replays is a difficult experience, at best, with your having to go back to the beginning, and start over, if there is any drop out of the data stream, or if you want to study (listen to) something again. Why can't the replays be released in MP3 format?


Perhaps this, perhaps that....
The fact is that ChNN Rinpoche says that only listening to live webcasts is considered to be transmission from him.
Take it or leave it....
As for the replays, they are in mp3 format! However what you are downloading is not the mp3 file itself, but a m3u file which serves for retrieving the real mp3 audio file from the playlist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3U
This is done obviously for copyright reasons. Take it or leave it, too.... :consoling:


Hi Dronma,

Yesterday I wrote:

"I have also been standing 1 meter from Rinpoche when someone asked him, "Can you get lung transmission from a recording?"

Rinpoche paused a moment and then said, "Yes, it is all sound," and then rolled his eyes up. This occurred at Tseygyalgar, on the upper land, many years ago. There were several witnesses.

Maybe he has since changed his mind. "

I started and then ran the audio /video libraries at Merigar and Tseygyalgar for the first 10 years from 1982 to 1992. Anyone who was sincerely interested in having access to the teachings was able to do so. All this changed in the early 90s as Rinpoche became more under the influence of his Western disciples, and things became more locked down.

The fact that the DC releases the replays in M3U files rather than directly in MP3s just means that poor people and the computer challenged, who cannot afford to buy the MP3s from SSI, or do not know how to convert the M3Us, or record the material in an audio capture program, just have a harder time of it. This is indicative of, and a product of, the mind set of the Westerners who advised Rinpoche, and has no precedent or basis in Samaya or Dharma.

Perhaps this, perhaps that and take it or leave it are your /your construction and framing of the situation. Good luck. :smile:

ob
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