Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby MalaBeads » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:34 pm

Lhasa wrote: I think there is a question of 'capacity' here. If you have the capacity to tune in, you get it, no matter when it was transmitted. This was my direct experience when I first viewed Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche''s videos. It may be that if you have a strong karmic link with a Teacher, it only takes contact of any kind to renew and activate that connection.
This is something I have noticed when ChNN does DI or empowerments. There is a very strong protective, sheltering energy coming from him. A ' We're not in Kansas anymore.' kind of energy. He is deliberately and consciously creating a 'safe place' for everyone participating. Maybe this is a Vajra Tent? Maybe that is why he wants the live webcast transmission....so Westerners with heads full of cotton and little good sense, don't tune into his Mindstream in a way that will fry their circuits and crash their hard drive.


Makes a lot of sense to me, Lhasa.
MalaBeads
 
Posts: 480
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:25 pm

simhanada wrote:The video provides the structure, not the transmission.
I don't disagree, but it does not "disprove" my point.
The state is beyond space and time, the methods are not?
If you strap a couple of canoe paddles to your arms and flap real hard and fast you are not going to fly are you? So how can methods based in time and space lead to a state beyond time and space?

Oh, just want to say: this is not a personal issue with you (or anybody else) simhananda, it's not that I am trying to prove you (or anybody else) wrong. I'm just trying to understand where you (all) are coming from.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10553
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Dronma » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:39 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Oh, just want to say: this is not a personal issue with you (or anybody else) simhananda, it's not that I am trying to prove you (or anybody else) wrong. I'm just trying to understand where you (all) are coming from.


If you really like to understand, Greg, maybe you should listen directly to what ChNN Rinpoche says about all this. Because he explains everything in details, so his students have no doubt.
The key-point is intention and synchronicity. What is so difficult in understanding this?


gregkavarnos wrote:If Dzogchen is beyond space and time, then how can its transmission be bound by space and time? Why is its transmission dependent on space and time?


The state of Dzogchen is beyond all limitations, but we are not in that state. If we were, then we'd need no transmission. That's why, while we are still bound by all limitations, we are trying first of all to discover that state, and then remain in it without interruption 24/7 through the teachings and practices.
As ChNNR says often: "working with circumstances". :smile:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
User avatar
Dronma
 
Posts: 715
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:29 pm
Location: Athens - GR

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby heart » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:42 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:If you strap a couple of canoe paddles to your arms and flap real hard and fast you are not going to fly are you? So how can methods based in time and space lead to a state beyond time and space?


Most Buddhist methods are like that, using the mind to beyond mind. It is whole point of meditation.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3196
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:24 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:This though still does not answer my question about intention: does intention have a use by/expiry date?

I can have the intention to build a safe road for people to drive on (for example) and so I build it. Does my intention end when the building ends? When the building starts? When people are using the safe road? ...?

Vajra brother Greg, your example really seems to be analogous to the situation of transmission, but it's not exactly. Why? Because a road is a tangible, physical thing that persists long after your intention to build it dissolves back into emptiness and completely different thoughts have taken that intention's place. Transmission, on the other hand, is intangible and consists of the fleeting coordination of master and student. I'll speak more on that below, though.

gregkavarnos wrote: By the same token I may have the intention to produce a video that allows for transmission/pointing out. When does my intention end?

If Dzogchen is beyond space and time, then how can its transmission be bound by space and time? Why is its transmission dependent on space and time?


The previous poster did actually answer your question when he/she mentioned that the transmission is not being received via the video or the internet. Therefore, even if the video lasts for a million years, it never has and never will "contain" the transmission. The transmission consists of the master being in his knowledge of the natural state and the student doing guru yoga with the master and, to some degree, happening to glimpse his or her own natural state at that time. When it comes to direct introduction, the video is just for coordinating the timing of this.

Still, you ask, how can the intention to transmit be limited within time if the Dzogchen state is beyond space and time? Well I've heard Rinpoche say many times that the transmission is not bound by space but it is bound by time. Why? Well, he often says "who knows, maybe you are out there somewhere and attempting to be in the same state with me but maybe I am over here on the toilet, so transmission does not happen" which seems to be him implying that he's not in his knowledge of the natural state 24/7, so you gotta coordinate with him. He has to be in that knowledge at the moment you intend to do guru yoga with him and have your nature become evident to you. The Dzogchen state is beyond space and time but one's knowledge of it is kind of like the sun periodically being seen when the clouds part and then covered up again until one is fully realized and the clouds are permanently removed.

Now, maybe ChNN is just being humble and although he is in the natural state 24/7, he's trying to set an example of how to diligently practice, like Padmasambhava did, rather than be an example of someone who's already finished the path and who we can't relate to. Or maybe he's being honest and he's not always in the natural state. Who but him knows? All I know is he says what his capabilities are and what I need to do to participate in light of his capabilities, and since he's proved to me he is trustworthy as a teacher, I'm OK with participating according to his instructions and it's working out great.
Pema Rigdzin
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby T. Chokyi » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:27 pm

This is a really good question:

gregkavarnos wrote:"If Dzogchen is beyond space and time, then how can its transmission be bound by space and time? Why is its transmission dependent on space and If Dzogchen is beyond space and time, then how can its transmission be bound by space and time? Why is its transmission dependent on space and time?


The transmission isn't bound by space or time, but we are.

If we weren't bound by space or time in our condition, and had the ability in this moment to go beyond all limitation like Garab Dorje who had the ability to receive the transmission directly from Vajrasattva than we could also have the transmission directly from Vajrasattva himself, we could right now have no "appointment" to meet with any master for DI at say 10 am and try to be present in the state of contemplation when Rinpoche is in that state.

Rinpoche often says we have experiences in our nature "concretely" so going for DI or the teachings, singing Song of Vajra, that way we can experience that energy (Tsal) and know for ourselves (be certain) that there was and is this transmission, by having confidence that Rinpoche is in that state and now we are relaxing and hearing and seeing him (if you are a member) sounding White AH etc... this gives us a way to enter with him into that state, this is water poured into water, like the opening of a door that would remain shut for so many people... however, once again, it would be unnecessary to do this to receive DI from our side if we had the ability to go directly within that transmission from Sambhogakaya. http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Sambhogakaya

CHNNR has said many times, we are living in "circumstance" and we are experiencing the human condition, generally for human beings there are considerable obstacles, great or small and that varies, we understand this depends on our karmic condition, we all have our own karma, we are relatively faced with our situation everyday, could be our health for instance, but CHNNR lets us know these are relative conditions and relative conditions shouldn't be allowed to just totally control us, we shouldn't be passive. People don't have to have any fantasy about whether they heard transmission or not, when CHNNR says he is transmitting then he is, this also gives us an opportunity to get into our real nature going beyond mind (sems) to Nature of mind (Semnyi)
User avatar
T. Chokyi
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 11:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:26 am

I can only tell about own delusions while in open devotion the compassionate blessings are recieved, then nature reveals itself is said.
If mind is disturbed, whether there are words at 'the right time or later', it makes no difference, at least not for me, I remain as deluded as can be. Then no transmission.
Therefore devotion/faith, while analysing is like investigating in the material of the liberation of material apprehended inventions.
The sun shines impartially.
muni
 
Posts: 3243
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:42 pm

Dronma wrote:The key-point is intention and synchronicity. What is so difficult in understanding this?
Because I have not received a convincing answer in regards to what defines the duration of "intention" yet AND this concept of synchronicity with something that is not based in time and space just doesn't sit right for me.
The state of Dzogchen is beyond all limitations, but we are not in that state.
Everything said in the Kungyed Gyalpo disagrees fundamentally with your statement.
It is whole point of meditation.
'cept, of course, that the natural state is not beyond (seperate to) mind and cannot be "gained" through "method".
Vajra brother Greg, your example really seems to be analogous to the situation of transmission, but it's not exactly. Why? Because a road is a tangible, physical thing that persists long after your intention to build it dissolves back into emptiness and completely different thoughts have taken that intention's place.
A dvd of a transmission is (apparently) a tangible physical thing. At the same time Dzogchen (and Buddhist) theory will say there is no "thing" and it is not "tangible" anyway.
Transmission, on the other hand, is intangible and consists of the fleeting coordination of master and student.
Back to square one: if it is intagible then it is not limited by time and space and thus... Anyway, where else does transmission occur if not in the mind? Is the mind bound by time and space? If not, (which it quite obviously is not), then that seems to render the medium of transmission irrelevant.
Why? Well, he often says "who knows, maybe you are out there somewhere and attempting to be in the same state with me but maybe I am over here on the toilet, so transmission does not happen"
The nature of mind is present under all circumstances. Even on the toilet. The nature of mind is the toilet, the crap coming out of your rectum, the water splashing onto your butt, etc... (sorry for the scatlogical references, but I was responding to the specific point).
The transmission isn't bound by space or time, but we are.
Actually we are not, we may think we are but...

As for the sambhogakaya, well, it is actually much, much closer than you think! ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10553
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby CrawfordHollow » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:15 pm

The Kungyed Gyalpo is the main tantra of semde. It is my understanding that semde focuses on the non-duality of mind and appearances. The upadesha series introduces this distinction between dualitstic mind (sem) and rigpa. So the semde seires says that everthing is always in the sphere of the non-dual natural state, and the upadesha series makes this distintion between the samsaric state of mind and rigpa. So it seems that there are some contradictions even within the dzogchen teachings about whether or not we are always within the natural state.

I don't think it is the case that the natural state is something that can be gained, but it is something that can be obscured. I know that this does not answer your question in the least, I just wanted to point out that there is this distinction between a deluded state of mind and a mind resting in rigpa. I was just reading about this in Approaching the Great Perfection, I can get some passages later if you are interested.

I am not so sure that there is a clear cut answer to the question about how, when, or why the transmission happens. I do have some more thoughts about this but my ride just got here, so I will check back in later today.

Troy
CrawfordHollow
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 10:56 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:03 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:I don't think it is the case that the natural state is something that can be gained, but it is something that can be obscured.
This is another point, a point of contradiction that existed in the discussion with the "True Self" mob: How can something that is all pervasive, infinite, unbound, etc... be obscured by something that is temporary, compounded, limited, etc...
I know that this does not answer your question in the least...
I am not really looking for answers, just, maybe, a better way to frame a question, or some interesting and relevant discussion, or just to be a pain in the rear end...? :tongue:
I am not so sure that there is a clear cut answer to the question about how, when, or why the transmission happens.
There probably isn't one (ChNN doesn't seem to think there is) but all points of view are welcome.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10553
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:49 pm

Devotion and the blessings of the guru. Transmission happens by a realized master and a student able to see the master as Buddha - awaken nature. Without genuine devotion is it not possible, by right thoughts about is it not possible.

Therefore it is very very important to find a master we feel connection to.

Two cents. :namaste:
The sun shines impartially.
muni
 
Posts: 3243
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby CrawfordHollow » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:44 pm

I have heard that Garchen Rinpoche has said that essentially during a lung nothing actually happens. The true transmission occurs when the teacher explains the practice to the student and the student has devotion and bodhichitta. How this relates to ChNN giving lungs over webcast is another story.

I personally believe, and others I am sure will disagree with me, that the transmission is totally possible during a replay. It reallly depends on the faith and devotion of the student. Now, ChNN has said otherwise, and of course we must respect this. I find it hard to believe that the reason is as clear-cut as saying that transmission needs to happen "live." Maybe ChNN just wants to set up some conformity within his sangha. I don't know. Really can't say. I just don't think that we can even start to define what this transmission even is, let alone how it works. The important thing is that it does work.

Troy
CrawfordHollow
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 10:56 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Jikan » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:10 pm

CrawfordHollow wrote:I have heard that Garchen Rinpoche has said that essentially during a lung nothing actually happens. The true transmission occurs when the teacher explains the practice to the student and the student has devotion and bodhichitta. How this relates to ChNN giving lungs over webcast is another story.

I personally believe, and others I am sure will disagree with me, that the transmission is totally possible during a replay. It reallly depends on the faith and devotion of the student. Now, ChNN has said otherwise, and of course we must respect this. I find it hard to believe that the reason is as clear-cut as saying that transmission needs to happen "live." Maybe ChNN just wants to set up some conformity within his sangha. I don't know. Really can't say. I just don't think that we can even start to define what this transmission even is, let alone how it works. The important thing is that it does work.

Troy


It may be that this is another way in which ChNN is a more conservative lama than he might be reputed to be ("conservative" in the sense of playing it safe, if you will).

By contrast, years ago I visited a Kagyu center in the US where I was instructed as follows: when one watches a video recording of a great lama, such as HH Karmapa, one must feel that the lama is there with you right then and there, instructing you in real time, and thereby transmission is possible. We then watched a recording of HH Karmapa 17 giving a lung for a Chenrezig sadhana, and after, we were told that we had received the transmission and a meaningful connection was made with HH Karmapa. I won't lie, it felt real to me. This is a much looser policy than the one in effect in the Dzogchen Community.

Bigger picture:

I think the question of whether ChNN is a traditionalist or an anti-traditionalist, which has come up in this thread again and again (with some going so far as to suggest he has thrown his samaya under the bus), is worth reviewing in this context. To give an example of what I mean: I've heard students in other traditions (not teachers but students, and in person, not here at DW) criticize ChNN fiercely for not demanding his students perform ngondro before making direct introduction available to them. Well, if you listen carefully, you'll hear that ChNN encourages students to practice ngondro as appropriate, as it is useful to them; his Longsal cycle includes a ngondro. (I've practiced it.) He also points out that the tradition of ngondro-before-DI is much more recent than the older tradition of giving qualified students direct introduction directly (the three letters of Garab Dorje). And who is qualified? If you are interested enough to show up with proper intention, you have demonstrated your qualification. In teaching this way, I'd argue that ChNN may be the opposite of what his detractors make him out to be: an upholder of an older tradition than the "traditionalists" they may imagine themselves to be. To my poor mind, he seems less an anti-traditionalist than a paleo-traditionalist. This is one of the reasons that I have, to this day, great confidence in his teachings.
Great River Tendai Sangha: a Tendai Buddhist community in Alexandria, Virginia, USA (near Washington, DC):

http://dctendai.blogspot.com

www.facebook.com/dctendai
Jikan
Former staff member
 
Posts: 5943
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby CrawfordHollow » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:27 pm

Word. :good:
CrawfordHollow
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 10:56 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:53 pm

Jikan wrote:By contrast, years ago I visited a Kagyu center in the US where I was instructed as follows: when one watches a video recording of a great lama, such as HH Karmapa, one must feel that the lama is there with you right then and there, instructing you in real time, and thereby transmission is possible.
You won't see anything like this happening in the mandala I am in, noooooooooo way!!! By the book every time! Asphyxiatingly so (as far a I am concerned), many times.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 10553
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby wisdom » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:30 am

If we think we can receive transmission from videos then it follows we can also do it from books as well. The risk is that taking this attitude towards all the teachings can easily devolve into simply thinking you are receiving all kinds of transmissions when instead you are just following your own ego and desires and creating delusions. The second risk of this is that you may not properly understand the teaching and just project your own views upon it, which is why receiving an explanation from a qualified person is important. Lastly, even if it is possible for you, if beginners hear about it and think its possible for them they may decide they never need any Guru at all, and that would be tragic for 99.99% of practitioners.

If you are in a place where you are not actually limited by these things, then you are also in a place that you understand skillful means and so can see the reason for the rules and regulations even if you have transcended them. Nevertheless, even if we have confidence and experience with the natural state we can never be too careful. So its been said that we should hold the highest possible view, but our attention to action should be as fine as flour. Such an attitude prevents seeds of ego and pride from entering our practice and obscuring our Buddha nature.
User avatar
wisdom
 
Posts: 473
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:33 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby practitioner » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:55 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
Jikan wrote:By contrast, years ago I visited a Kagyu center in the US where I was instructed as follows: when one watches a video recording of a great lama, such as HH Karmapa, one must feel that the lama is there with you right then and there, instructing you in real time, and thereby transmission is possible.
You won't see anything like this happening in the mandala I am in, noooooooooo way!!! By the book every time! Asphyxiatingly so (as far a I am concerned), many times.


I'm with you on that one, never heard of that in any Kagyu center I've been in. Teachings and practice instruction may be done by phone or in videos/recordings. But it's not a lung or wang if you aren't in the room.
One should do nothing other than benefit sentient beings either directly or indirectly - Shantideva
User avatar
practitioner
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 5:48 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:25 am

wisdom wrote:If we think we can receive transmission from videos then it follows we can also do it from books as well. The risk is that taking this attitude towards all the teachings can easily devolve into simply thinking you are receiving all kinds of transmissions when instead you are just following your own ego and desires and creating delusions. The second risk of this is that you may not properly understand the teaching and just project your own views upon it, which is why receiving an explanation from a qualified person is important. Lastly, even if it is possible for you, if beginners hear about it and think its possible for them they may decide they never need any Guru at all, and that would be tragic for 99.99% of practitioners.

If you are in a place where you are not actually limited by these things, then you are also in a place that you understand skillful means and so can see the reason for the rules and regulations even if you have transcended them. Nevertheless, even if we have confidence and experience with the natural state we can never be too careful. So its been said that we should hold the highest possible view, but our attention to action should be as fine as flour. Such an attitude prevents seeds of ego and pride from entering our practice and obscuring our Buddha nature.

:good:
Pema Rigdzin
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby Sherlock » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:47 am

Jikan wrote:I think the question of whether ChNN is a traditionalist or an anti-traditionalist, which has come up in this thread again and again (with some going so far as to suggest he has thrown his samaya under the bus), is worth reviewing in this context. To give an example of what I mean: I've heard students in other traditions (not teachers but students, and in person, not here at DW) criticize ChNN fiercely for not demanding his students perform ngondro before making direct introduction available to them. Well, if you listen carefully, you'll hear that ChNN encourages students to practice ngondro as appropriate, as it is useful to them; his Longsal cycle includes a ngondro. (I've practiced it.) He also points out that the tradition of ngondro-before-DI is much more recent than the older tradition of giving qualified students direct introduction directly (the three letters of Garab Dorje). And who is qualified? If you are interested enough to show up with proper intention, you have demonstrated your qualification. In teaching this way, I'd argue that ChNN may be the opposite of what his detractors make him out to be: an upholder of an older tradition than the "traditionalists" they may imagine themselves to be. To my poor mind, he seems less an anti-traditionalist than a paleo-traditionalist. This is one of the reasons that I have, to this day, great confidence in his teachings.


:twothumbsup:
Everything he teaches has scriptural justification even if it's not as popular among other lamas.
Sherlock
 
Posts: 1202
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Postby muni » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:03 am

practitioner wrote: But it's not a lung or wang if you aren't in the room.


There are no limitations in connection. Spacelike nature has no room, cannot be locked up in room. But for sure connection must be. For recognition of Awaken nature (not by opinions, arguments-thoughts) some insight of emptiness, not only intellectually, but rather insight- devotion in Awaken nature or Guru Yoga is the way, to not see 'a teacher' like habits are used to see.
Ps Mila who was guided by Marpa in his cave, 'far away', this is not a story but an example. Space, in which the bodies and all phenomena appear has no limitations. :alien:

Discursive mind creates its' limitations.

:namaste:
The sun shines impartially.
muni
 
Posts: 3243
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 26 guests

>